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WTF is it with the "We must accept the Syrian refugees" craze?

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by Biker, Sep 12, 2015.

  1. Biker

    Biker Administrator Staff Member

    But that's the problem. A good portion of the voting populace wants the government to do just that. Give everything to them and screw everything else. It's a prime example of what's wrong with politics and society in general.

    Janine Turner (yes, THAT Janine Turner) has a rather interesting OpEd in the Washington Times.

    JANINE TURNER: Science about our neocortex validates our Founding Fathers’ vision

    However the liberals think that big government is the answer to everything. And as long as there are those that have their hands out going "me me me me me", things aren't going to get fixed any time soon.
  2. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    Biker, I will not disagree with you. But the people include everybody. Short of a revolution the will of the country is supposed to reflect the will of the people. Even if they are stupid and lazy and greedy.
  3. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Shiny, the more I read your posts and the longer I've known you the more I like you and respect you. However I disagree with your comments, and I'll address them.

    1.) What we have now is nascent socialism. Every step Obama's administration (and party) takes reduces employment opportunities (except maybe 30 hours/week fast food jobs and the like) and increased public need for and dependence on government support. "How much more taxes do we pay?" you said. Perhaps unintentionally you put your finger on the problem. People with McJobs don't pay taxes, nor does about 50% lowest paid workers. (What I mean is that half of all workers do not pay any taxes.) With them not paying taxes the burden falls on the rest who have decent jobs (like I used to have when I was a engineer). It's an old saying but true: "The problem with socialism is when you run out of other peoples' money" ---- But I agree that with this premise we cannot afford to send military forces abroad.

    2.) The countries we are fighting for have no motivation to pay is, even if they could. The few we still support would be calamities for America if they fell. Yes it could be calamatous to those who reside in these countries too, but they know our well being depends on our support. And anyway, many of the countries we support are poor and could not afford to pay us for our "police" presence. We could of course just let them fail, and their citizens would be in a very bad place, but at the same time we Americans will face a more dangerous world with our enemies strengthened.

    Addressing the rest of your post:

    Education: Fixing education costs is not working. All we're doing is propping up student loans. This in turn makes it easier for students to attend college, and the colleges see it as a good opportunity to increase tuition costs. Law of supply and demand. Students with more money increases demand, that drives prices up because they know they can get it. Making student loans available has done nothing except help real people get deeper in debt while at the same time driving up tuition costs at an average of 7% per year, much higher than inflation in general. Supporting student loans amounts to nothing more than pouring gasoline on a fire.

    Weapons system procurement: I'd rather call this "porkurement." Because much of it depends on "porking" up the disbursement of funds. We are hampered by our political system where Congressmen are dependent on directing government funding into their own states (constituency) even at the cost of weakening the nation. Thus the "bridges to nowhere." They need to steer money to their home states to get reelected. But at the same time they are shirking being good Americans. Better to serve their home states even at the expense of hurting America. Did you ever hear of patriotism? This is not it!!! If our political parties and representatives do not start thinking "What is good for America" we are merely dividing the slices in an ever shrinking pie while the bakery burns down.

    Healthcare: Here again the government fixed the wrong problem, and a very poor fix it was! It boggles my mind that Obama and his cohorts thought they could fix the healthcare system by fiddling with the healthcare insurance system!

    The healthcare insurance system in every place I'm aware of is governed by laws that require them to spend some massive share (over 90%) of their income paying healthcare costs! They have actually benefitted by Obamacare ("you get to keep your doctor and your insurance will go down by X.") All Obamacare did is increase the operating costs of healthcare insurance companies, so the pie got bigger and their percentage (set by law) got bigger. Obamacare has been a boon to healthcare insurance companies! Look at your policy if you don't believe me.

    The big mistake they made is that any shanges should have been with the healthcare delivery system! Not a single part of Obamacare addressed reducing healthcare costs. In fact they mandated an increase in the insurance industry covering more "must be delivered" services, so Obamacare actually increased the actual cost (to insurance companies) in delivering healthcare, which increased our premiums.

    What we have here is creeping socialism, only maybe it isn't even creeping. Did I say it in this post or another? I'll say it again:

    "The problem with socialism is when you run out of other people's money."
  4. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Biker! Dude! I'm so pleased to find you and I on the same site of the issue! Everybody already read my comment about "the problem with socialism is when you run out of other peoples'' money."

    The problem I see here is that Obama's (and the Democrats') policy has had the effect of reducing the availability of REAL jobs (like mine before I retired: electronic engineer) and instead has created McJOBs, jobs limited to under 30 hours a week to avoid the employers' expense in offering benefits such as healthcare. At the same time it has created a needy class of people who need government support even with their McJobs. The liberals have done nothing except increase the numbers of people dependent on government services, and increased the numbers of voters who will vote for anybody running under the rubric of increasing government services.

    What we have in action is elected officials who understand that their re-election depends on how much pork they bring home to their home state and constituents, and Devil may care if is screws America.

    Hahaha, I'm reminded of ABBA's "Gimme, Gimme, Gimme (a man after midnight)." There is a problem with that line of thinking. It's great in the night, not being alone. But ABBA never addressed the day after, the depression, possible pregnancy or venereal disease.

    Thinking of another quote (Pogo): "I've seen the enemy, and the enemy is us!"

    The simple fact is that while we are dividing the spoils of America's carcass, our enemies are plotting on how to take control of America, and our politicians are focused on how to get reelected (and fuck the world, what does that have to do with America anyway?).
  5. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Shiny, there is a basic problem, and I believe I have spoken on this subject before.

    The problem is with human intelligence, and also with human greed and self-interest.

    The simple fact is that half of Americans are below average intelligence. Unless there is a skew that smarter people register disproportionately, then 50% of American voters are below average intelligence.

    In my experience, below average intelligence people I've known are more concerned about drugs, liquor, shagging the neighbor's wife and what's on TV? Oh and the biggie: "What can I get for free?"

    What if a majority of the people voted to redistribute the wealth of the country and take half of everything the rich people own and redistribute it to all the poor people?

    Oops, too close to the truth! That's what we have now.

    What we have inspires people to be lazy and let the gummint give it to them, and fuck the rich people they have enough money anyway.

    The problem with that is that you encourage poor people to suck off the government, and discourage rich people from earning more or creating jobs. ("Why should I? The gummint will just take what I earn and create and give it to the poor, lazy, don't wanna work people.')
  6. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    I think we are on the same sheet of music with regard to education, health care, and procurement. Education cost in other countries is much less. Health care for everybody I fully support. As I posted when Obamacare was passed we did not fix anything that was wrong with healthcare, we gave it to more people.

    But what would you change? Would you take away the vote from poor people or anybody who gets money from the government? Somebody smarter than I said that democracy can only last until the people discover they can vote themselves money. I don't think we disagree. I am just waiting for somebody to post a solution, preferably somebody running for president.
  7. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    All I can say about healthcare is that "fixing" the healthcare insurance industry wasn't it. And are there truly more people covered now? "You can keep your doctor. Your rates will go down." Lies, lies, lies. And what about all the people who have lost their jobs thanks to the screwed economy. We may have increased jobs but mostly it was a reduction in professional, skilled jobs and increases in 30 hour McJobs. How many people used to pay for their own insurance or employers paid it, and now unemployed the government pays for it? See the problem is that the employment/unemployment figures are lies. People who have just given up are no longer counted as unemployed. In fact I was one of them. My job went away, I looked for about 3 years and never found a replacement job, finally reached 62 and went for early Social Security. I lost 3 years of the most productive, highest paid years off my career.

    I have been bitterly complaining for years that the healthcare insurance industry is not permitted to compete across state lines. Actually I'm sure this is an intentional situation set up by insurance industry lobbyists themselves, to divide and conquer. It allows them to spread the risk in 50 small pools instead of one big pool. It prevents all but the largest healthcare insurance companies from competing in all states, and the competition in each state is a separate one. Each of the biggest healthcare insurance companies has a national holding company owning 50 operating companies, and they are free to set separate rates in each state. I'm sure the insurance rates for Los Angeles are much higher than those in Podunk Hollow. I'm pleased to see that at least one Presidential contender -- Trump -- has taken this as part of his platform, that he would remove the barriers between the states and allow insurance companies to compete nationally. Or in other words, they would be forced to compete because all players would be on a level playing field without artificial barriers between the states.

    I don't know much about the healthcare industry itself. One thing I know is that the barriers to have new medical appliances and prescription drugs approved is formidable. I'm pretty sure it is much more expensive to have either certified by the FDA than it is to develop them in the first place.

    And why are the exact same drugs made by the same exact pharmaceutical companies cheaper in Canada? It's because pharmaceutical companies are content to milk the American cash cow for the bulk of their profit, and in Canada they negotiate a single, lower price with the pharmaceuticals. Many Americans in northern US cross the border and get their prescriptions in Canada and save a lot of money because of the lower prices.

    I'm not that well informed. I'm not running for president. I have no advisers. All I know is some of the things that are wrong. In many cases I don't know how to fix them, but I doubt that simply accepting them is the right idea. And anyway, I live in California. My vote doesn't count. The liberals have a lock on what comes out of my state in the way of elected representatives in national office. (And mostly in state office too.) I guess part of my frustration is that I can watch the train wreck, but I can't do anything about it.

    What I know for sure is that the federal government has gotten too huge, too powerful, too controlling. The national debt will have doubled in a period of 8 years by the time Obama leaves office. This huge burden is strangling the economy, crippling industry, forcing corporations offshore where they can afford the taxes better in other countries. I'll say it again: "Socialism works fine until you run out of other peoples' money." Many of the sources of the money the socialists are spending are leaving the country because they are tired of being drained dry by our government. I don't know where the endpoint is but I know I don't want to go there.

    If we get an Obama clone as our next president the negative trends are going to continue. I don't have any children but I know most of you folks do. Many of these debts will be burdens passed on to the next generation. (Themselves already burdened by student loans caused by artificially inflated tuition.) I don't know what will happen if the national debt continues to go up but I can't see any way it won't cause devaluation of our currency. That is why I've hedged a large part of my net worth in real estate.

    And then there's the Republican party... They have a majority in both houses but what have they done with it? ... Nothing. The conservatives can't get it together while the liberals can. A huge majority of the US population believes the country is headed in the wrong direction. But also, a majority of conservatives believe the Republicans are screwing up, and have not delivered on their promises. This is setting things up for a defeat of conservatism and I predict further movement towards socialism for America.

    It makes me glad I got to live most of my life in better times. It makes me glad I've left no children who will have to deal with this mess. It makes me glad that I'm retired (although I do run a business) and I have the ability to shift my finances to deal with whatever is coming down the pike. I already have plans to sell off pieces of my business if taxes get worse, to lower my income and rejoin the roughly half of Americans who pay no taxes. I'm glad I have to hang together only another three decades. After that I can watch the grass roots grow.
  8. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Hey we seem to have gotten off topic. Not surprising considering the widespread gloom about the America we find ourselves in today..

    I heard that the number of Syrian refuges is now roughly 200,000 and they are mostly males, have no documentation, and there is no way we will know anything about them beyond having to accept whatever they tell us.

    I spoke before about how few people it would take, if they were organized, to bring down America's energy, water, communications and transport infrastructure. Are these Syrians the army that has been sent to bring us down?

    All I can say is that I'm glad Mexico isn't interested in bringing down America, although they are interested in taking us over by turning our population Latino. California is already there. I jokingly call it Alta California (after the adjacent Mexican state of Baja California immediately to our south. Baja = lower, alta = upper.

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