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Wow, Check Out The Comments

Discussion in 'Society and Culture' started by Sierra Mike, Oct 23, 2013.

  1. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    I'm especially fond of the notion that Obama brought in 10,000-15,000 Russian troops, because American soldiers won't shoot their own people. Well, yeah, I hope that's the case, but those 15,000 Russkies are certainly going to be surprised when a couple of American brigades annihilate them for shooting Americans.

    Anyway, here's the column: The Militarization of U.S. Police Forces

    Not long after 9/11, the already fairly formidable NYPD stood up its Hercules units, which are basically direct action tactical units. Essentially, they took NYPD ESU and gave them MP5s and other goodies in the beginning, and now they have MRAPs and aviation sniping systems, etc., etc. In a place like NYC, it might make some sense. In a place like Los Angeles, where the distances are vast, it might make even more sense.

    But look, if the Westport PD in Connecticut suddenly starts buying MRAPs and repurposed OH-58D helicopters and the like, I've got to wonder just what the hell is going on. Especially since I know more about that stuff than anyone on the PD, and I wouldn't want them. Really, departments in Iowa need this gear? Is there a strategic necessity for it?
     
  2. SixofNine

    SixofNine Jedi Sage Staff Member

    Last edited: Nov 26, 2013
  3. Biker

    Biker Administrator Staff Member

    I love how the article claims rampant fraud but makes absolutely no attempt at detailing specific examples.

    I don't begrudge police departments more advanced tools that help protect and defend officers, but I really don't see how they can justify the maintenance and operating costs of MRAPs and OH-58Ds. Seriously?
     
  4. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    Lots of jurisdictions are using the old OH-58s since they can't afford to buy their own birds. That part of the 1033 program has been in use for years. Columbus PD started their air wing that way. I suspect the maintenance is easy(er) to get pushed through the budget process once they say "Look, we can get it for free."
     
  5. SixofNine

    SixofNine Jedi Sage Staff Member

    Local police departments getting all of that gear is half the issue. The other half is the expanded scope of its use. Once upon a time SWAT teams were used in situations where their training and equipment were really needed. Now 40 decked-out Detroit police officers are raiding an event at the Contemporary Art Institute of Detroit because the gallery lacked the proper permits for dancing and drinking:

    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/08/swat-team-nation.html

    Biker, that article that I linked has some good examples of misuse of the program:

     
  6. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    In the past, I never worried about this crap. But lately, I'm beginning to see a peculiar shift in policing that has me a little worried.
     
  7. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old school Conservative

    I'm W-A-Y past "a little worried." Like Chicago is "a little past" Cleveland.
     
  8. Piobaireachd

    Piobaireachd Full Member

  9. Kluge

    Kluge Observing your world for over 50 years

    I'm confused as to why certain persons can hold simultaneously 2 apparently conflicting opinions:
    Ordinary citizens should be allowed to own any type of weapon they can get.
    Police should not have weapons that might otherwise be sold as military surplus.
    Why isn't this being spun into "citizens should have these too"?
    For myself, I think the day is coming when some citizens (bypassing the police issue for the moment) will have access to terrifying amounts of automated firepower. It could come first as a wealthy, tech-savvy individual who could automate a gunship. This proto-Ironman might find it possible to eliminate enemies in his wake while keeping his involvement undetected, if not the actual means of destruction. Michael Crichton has passed away so there's nobody to write the present-day sci-fi novel showing the possibilities, but the possibilities are there.
    And the point would be, shouldn't our police be prepared to meet such a threat?
     
  10. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    Listen, if I can legally purchase an MRAP, then I have no problem with it. I can't, but the police can. I don't believe they need them, any more than you believe I need a gas-operated sporting rifle.
     
  11. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old school Conservative

    The RKBA and SA is based around the ideal that a citizen should be as well armed as a standard infantryman. Wealthy individuals in Colonial times financed their own militias, and that included the ownership of cannon.

    The police (a relatively recent concept) was instituted for the purpose of enforcing the laws of the applicable local, county or State. They are not there to protect the public.

    SWAT teams have a justifiable use. I understand that. They were designed to be deployed against "major events," like a bank robbery, hostage situation and the like. Where the police are facing well-equipped criminals. However, when they are used to raid an art gallery because of the gallery violating an alcohol ordinance, I don't think so. BTW, they confiscated everybody's electronics and impounded their cars. The owners had to pay about $1,000 each to get their cars back.

    The "Ooh, shiny!" effect has gone on too long. The fucking EPA has a SWAT team, and used it to raid a mine for groundwater violations up in Alaska not too long ago.
     
  12. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    The main problem behind having so many SWAT teams is that jurisdictions start having to justify the extra money they need by using them is places they don't need to be used. Have a gander at Radley Balko's writings on police militarization to see examples of the dangers behind SWAT teams.

    The basic idea behind the 1033 program isn't a bad thing. But it's being abused these days. The Ohio State University campus police has no need for an MRAP. No campus police force has a need for an MRAP.
     
  13. SixofNine

    SixofNine Jedi Sage Staff Member

  14. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    Love the straw man. Leftists can't argue without fallacies.
     
  15. SixofNine

    SixofNine Jedi Sage Staff Member

    Apparently in Ohio it's illegal to have a secret compartment in your car, even if it's empty.

     
  16. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old school Conservative

    It's shit like this makes me glad I left Ohio as soon as I could and haven't looked back.
     
  17. SixofNine

    SixofNine Jedi Sage Staff Member

    Thread rez -- this is supposed to be John Oliver commenting on Ferguson, and it starts out that way, but it's mainly him ragging on the 1033 program. And John, I love ya, you're funny as hell. and let's accept your comment that the video of Michael Brown stealing cigars is irrelevant to his getting shot. But by that logic, what do the actions of an LEO from St. Louis County have to do with the Ferguson police? Anyway, the 1033 stuff is good -- hang in there for the two dudes from Saginaw.

     
  18. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    These guys lose me with the Liberal bullshit. Him, Stewart... Need a funny guy who's a centrist, a realist.
     
  19. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    Wouldn't that be Al Sharpton? :D
     
  20. SixofNine

    SixofNine Jedi Sage Staff Member

    More 1033 stuff:

    Los Angeles School Police Department (emphasis added) accepted an MRAP, 61 M-16s, and three grenade launchers from DoD.

    There was a bit of an uproar over this, so they're giving up the grenade launchers, but keeping the MRAP and the rifles (and I certainly don't begrudge them the latter).
     

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