Violet, I was the fist one to step up with an "aye" when Ethics asked if we thought it was okay for men to have men-only health clubs. I have no problems with that. I agree with you that certain women's groups are making rediculous demands to be included in everything that men are included in. At least I think that is what you said. As for biker, if he insists that men and women lookat one another in the same way, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. One thing that maybe I'm not being clear about is that I'm not a rabid women's libber at all. In fact that all started when I was home raising my kids and I got all kinds of shit about not having a career. Well my kids turned out incredibly well. Those biddies always left a bad taste in my mouth.