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Wisconsin? How is this NOT Racism?

Discussion in 'Society and Culture' started by ethics, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. mikeky

    mikeky Member

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    We all live in the same world, those with Joseftus and Haywires. We can choose to see things in black and white, us or them, or as complex as these really are given history, science, etc.
  2. mikeky

    mikeky Member

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    I thought it was petty, high school-like. But it's something I've come to expect when disagreeing with the opinions of some. It seems the message is either kiss-my-ass or we'll kick-your-ass by any means necessary, if not with arguments then with exasperations and name-calling.
  3. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    I'm sure how I stand on affirmative action in general. "Affirmative action" is a code word for reverse discrimination, a seeming acceptance that you can apply reverse prejudice in the present and future to make up for the sins of past prejudice.

    The only problem is that if discrimination was bad then, then it's bad now, just different people who are taking the brunt. I don't know how you justify punishing a different group of people in order to make up for what others did in the past. In fact I think that's part of our Constitution somewhere, that guilt is not inherited. I see the whole affirmative action program as somehow setting the past score straight by penalizing/punishing people of a different generation.
  4. Kluge

    Kluge Observing your world for over 50 years

    I think you meant to say, racism is acceptable when it is for the right group of people.

    What possible definition of fairness says that congressmen from college-loaded neighborhoods in NYC get to appoint the same number of freshmen to West Point as congressmen from Allene's neighborhood in Idaho where the only commercial building is the soon to be closed Post Office?
    It's not fair but the army and/or its management think it's the right thing to do.

    Kids from Newport, Rhode Island have the same chance of getting into Annapolis as kids from Denver, Colorado. Makes sense? Fair?

    Filling a quota is filling a quota. doesn't matter if they're black or mountain climbers or spud farmers or jet set preppies. And I defy you to create a fair test to compare them. Any properly biased test you care to give them can make any one of those groups look like geniuses. But the objective is not to prove they're smart, the objective is to make a subset of those groups into intellectual offspring of their college professors.
  5. Piobaireachd

    Piobaireachd Full Member

  6. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    Out of curiosity I went over past threads about racism and AA. Many good points made over the years. With expected exceptions most agree it does more harm than good. Racial equality cannot come about due to affirmative action or any other form of racism.
  7. Kluge

    Kluge Observing your world for over 50 years

    I was a smart poor kid in a financially diverse town. Nominally a WASP yet included as such by race and some culture only. I was in the "advanced" class, the smart kids in rhe school. The problem was that the smart class had a skewed demographic of its own, students from wealthier families than the average population. When thinking back on my academic experience I often consider myself a "clay pigeon". Apparently Wikipedia and Merriam-Webster aren't familiar with this term as used by non-hunters so I'll elaborate.
    WikiP has "target drone" which is closest to the common usage for "clay pigeon", an object given life merely to be shot at, a practice enemy, a straw man for students of whatever study is underway. Despite having better test scores than many of my peers I learned to be the ignorant guy, the stupid guy, the outsider. I became an outsider in my own neighborhood as my classes were always separate from their classes. The middle ground became a fence between success and failure. Later in college one professor would say, "don't do (a specific kind of work), leave that to your drones" and if you're curious you can check the synonyms of drone.

    The point is, it is a mixed blessing to be the bottom of the top, The deck is stacked against such people even as thay toil in the belief that they have succeeded. In truth they have fallen for a trick used by the Japanese force that defended Iwo Jima, the Equal Opportunists have landed on the beach with ease and are making themselves comfortable before the real counterattack begins. The moral outrage vented at Affirmative Action shows a common thread, the focus on the heroes who emerge from the battle. When there is failure it is viewed as a glorious attempt to capture what was undeserved.
  8. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Can someone translate the above for me? I have no clue of what he is trying to say but I THINK there's white = rich in there.
  9. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    I think somebody needs a Fresca.

  10. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    You'll get over it. Or you won't. Life continues either way.

  11. Morg

    Morg The ultra-moderate

    I can't help, I've never understood one of his posts. :chickenlittle:
  12. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    Boy am I glad I am not the only one who does not get his posts. I was afraid it was age creeping up on me.
  13. Kluge

    Kluge Observing your world for over 50 years

    Sorry I'm hard to comprehend. Thanks for reading anyway.
    If somebody reads what I write then I'm not crazy.

    If I speak my opinions out loud and nobody is listening then I'm crazy.

    I guess I was trying to say that affirmative action is implemented to fill a percieved need of society, not of any one individual. I assume the same would be said for any of the programs that admit more students than the expected number of jobs to fill.

    I heard something about this law graduates without jobs thing on the radio recently but the googled NYT article is from January 8 2011. Why is it so tough to understand that an informed pre-college student will not attempt to compete against stronger opponents when jobs are scarce in that field and academic success rates are marginal for the pool of all students. If you receive incentives to enter the competition as a "dark horse", what should you consider your role there? Do you think you can roll in there like Ceasar or Napoleon Bonaparte and impress everyone with your natural raw talent untainted by tradition or experience? You think your job as assistant manager at McDonalds taught you enough to run the research department at Bell Labs?
  14. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    James, I *tried* reading it, a multiple times. I think that if I am not the only one who has an issues understanding perhaps you can write it more clearly. That's all. It's not like I am trying to be a douche about it. It's extremely frustrating since I spend time re-reading the post and still not getting it.

    Perhaps? I don't know what its function today except create more racism. Even Mikeky doesn't like the numbers, the perception that even ONE white eligible person is getting passed over based on solely skin color, we are creating racism.

    I think this is where Joseftu's world never got and never will: The perceived and factual results of AA are damaging to Whites and how they feel about it. So even if a few Blacks get in to college, do they want the world the perpetuates racism?

    If Jews were getting in to Colleges based on the fact they were Jews, and passing over, say, Christians, or Whites, do you think *I* would feel this is justice because there's only 3% of us in the US and, hey, too bad, the Christians can always go to some other school or find some other means because they are in the majority?

    It's a shameful way to think about this and it's inexcusable.
  15. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    Don't forget race. How can you know how valuable I am if I don't post my race?
  16. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    Then you don't remember Joseftu positing that very thing. He is the guy who said whites don't need their rights protected.
  17. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Kluge, I've tried reading many of your posts and I just don't get them. I don't know if it's your manner of composition or if it's the ideas that you're trying to communicate. My usual reaction to reading your posts is, what the heck? Sorry, I don't mean anything unkind. You asked.

    It's plain to see that most of the forum members regard affirmative action as just a different form of discrimination. To some degree the forum is composed of conservative members so perhaps your ideas and opinions would get greater acceptance on a more liberal forum.
  18. Kluge

    Kluge Observing your world for over 50 years

    As usual I have to write fast, I hope that and my style are responsible for any lack of understanding and not senility or worse ;-)
    #1: AA means Alcoholics Anonymous to me, first and foremost, although these days everybody creates micro dialects to suit the moment. ( I'm not in AA or anything, BTW).

    Quick story: About 1980 I worked at a corporation owned & run by some orthodox jews, people who occupied the offices & cubicles on the other end of a big room would disappear on Friday afternoons etc, you know the drill. So of about 3 engineers (give or take with some turnover) one was an immigrant who said he had taught at Moscow University and one day an older one who was an Austrian who had been a soldier in the German army during WWII was making jokes about the new engineers, saying "they're not really jewish, religion is illegal where they come from, they get off the boat and say I can have a job? Ok, I'm jewish!" So I hope you're chuckling because this is a New York business and even though it's a corporation somebody who owns it makes the personnel decisions for their own reasons, EEO considerations being secondary. The Fire Department, the police, HUD, the army, they don't have the priveledge of ownership there no matter how high ranking their managent may be, and if there are reasons for hiring a person other than pure merit (which you'll agree can't be completely assessed before employment) the issues of racial balance and so forth must be specified by laws, flawed perhaps but intended to correct some imbalance observed in the huge enterprises "owned" by John Q. Public and Jane Doe.

    I just don't understand why it is a shocker that adjustments would be "unfair" to some people. In earlier posts in this thread I am trying to make the point that the marginal differences aren't even relevant to future graduates, they're really about future dropouts, the people who need special help to compete against "the fittest" if you choose the Darwin-style term. It all does sound like the same agument on your side too, the haves should not be burdened by anything regarding the have-nots. If that means white = rich to you, I guess that's a new micro dialect being born here.
  19. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Kluge, I don't understand what your post has to do with the topic above. I'm sorry to be repetitious, but you lost me. You didn't make your point. Perhaps you can use this comment as constructive feedback.

    Maybe you should post only when you don't have to "write fast."
  20. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    I think he is saying that it IS unfair, but this is an ok type to be unfair.

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