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Wisconsin? How is this NOT Racism?

Discussion in 'Society and Culture' started by ethics, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Racism is acceptable when it is against the right group of people.

    Total numbers? Seems like you pop up to defend Left racism?

    But you know what, Mike. I blame you and your ideologues for where exactly where the Blacks are academically. The most tragic thing about affirmative action in higher education is that it is an blatant attempt to create a Potemkin campus, and in doing so papers over the much more fundamental and important problems in minority primary schools, thus preserving the very achievement gap it tries so hard to pretend doesn't exist. If they were admitted based on their actual academic qualifications, now THAT would be a reason enough to "feel good about themselves" wouldn't it?

    But, when you are admitted because some white liberals think that, because of your skin color, you are really too stupid to be there without their benificent handout, well that would be a good reason to not feel good about yourself.

    As I read the statistics -- available in great detail at http://apa.wisc.edu/...s_grad_ret.html -- African American students have about 50-55% graduation rate, compared with the "all new students" graduation rate of 80-85%. Whilst other explanations are possible, at a minimum this large a differential in graduation rates suggests minority students are admitted with lower skill levels and that is reflected in lower graduation rates. Let me repeat then, Racism is acceptable when it is against the right group of people.

  2. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    STILL not correct. It means an untold number were excluded, which would be the amount from score X at which point the blacks were admitted to score Y at which point the whites were admitted. Those whites scoring between X and Y were discriminated against in favor of admitting blacks. So if you can tell me what that number is, then you can tell me how many were discriminated against.

    Even with YOUR numbers, you would be okay with two students being discriminated against, so long as they were white.

    I doubt they accept every student, Mike, and if they do not, then there is racial bias under their system. The fact that we don't know the extent does not mean that their methods are not flawed.
  3. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    I just can't fucking believe someone is actually defending this shit. I am seriously just fucking floored.
  4. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    What leaves me absolutely shaking my head about the defense is that these stats are exactly the kind that blacks have used for decades to declare racism. The use of letters and paragraphs allows for the admission of whoever the hell they want. If whites were doing that it would be indefensible, the numbers would be enough to justify all actions.
  5. mikeky

    mikeky Member

    What I can't believe is that you would accept at face value, without question, a report from a group that has a clearly stated agenda against affirmative action, that uses questionable statistics to bolster their point, and then when someone else questions those statistics, accuse them of being a liberal, ideologue, etc., in order to discount the skepticism.

    The predominant reason I can think of for someone to do that is that they have a bias that needs justification, and they are willing to grasp at anything that confirms that bias. You're right. I guess racism is acceptable against the right group of people, especially when it's disguised as outrage at unfairness.

  6. mikeky

    mikeky Member

    Makes you wonder why the study didn't give those numbers, doesn't it? Could it be those results wouldn't be quite so dramatic as the 500+ odds presented? I suspect, given the great difference in population numbers, that is exactly the case.
  7. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Not sure what bias you speak of since those numbers were taken from Wisconsin's University site. http://apa.wisc.edu/...s_grad_ret.html

    If you meant CEOUSA? It's Conservative source sure but is it a bias research? I don't see any refute from the MSM--which would be all over this -- NOR the University which used more of an argument of "well, it's good for Black people...so there".

    Do you know why they've worded it this way? Simple, they want this to be legal in the face of the two SCOTUS cases. One found that a point-system of preferences was unconstitutional, and the other determined that universities could consider race in admissions decisions as long as it was one of many factors.

    What WERE those other factors? Because, you know, most of the schools deem scholastic performance to be one of the better ones. Were these kids gifted with some super powers?

    Look, aside from your posts of indignation and shallow math you have not come even close of repudiating this study neither is anyone else--including the school itself. And the argument of "it's not so bad"? One person being denied based on merit and passed for his/her skin color (remember, it's Asians too here) is a tragedy. And you call yourself a Progressive? Shame on you.

    P.S. Bias source complaint coming from you is pretty funny. You have no qualms about posting Left's ideologues and what they think of issues today, but when someone posts a study from a Conservative group, which looks pretty solid, all of a sudden you get pissed off.
  8. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Exactly right. But apparently to Mike and other Liberals like him, "it's not so bad. So what if a few whiteys don't get in. Look at all the Black folks who are benefiting."
  9. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    How long do we have to continue affirmative action, until it's deemed that reverse discrimination has achieved enough that we could drop the quota programs? Or has the result of freedom from discrimination resulted in a big government program to monitor the progress, and lengthy court battles about how much, what kind, or absence from extensive government action. What I'm suggesting here is that government has been a growth industry for more government. That's kind of the same thing as taking more drugs to satisfy your drug habit. Eventually druggies take too much of their chosen drug and they suffer complications which turn out to be beyond their ability to deal with it. We are there now with government IMO.
  10. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    It doesn't really matter how many were excluded. The methodology is flawed and cannot be supported. Just one person excluded is enough.

    Unless you think discrimination against one person is okay so long as it helps minorities, in which case, we don't really have anything left to discuss, Joe.
  11. mikeky

    mikeky Member

    Of course I meant bias from CEOUSA, in that they have a clearly stated agenda of being against affirmative action. As for refutation by the MSM, Wisconsin, or others, how many even have competent statisticians they can turn to to do the calculations, not to mention immediate access to the same data used by CEOUSA? A statistical analysis can be time-consuming and complex, if done right, and costly. It's not surprising at all the findings have only been generally refuted on principal, as opposed to statistically.

    We don't know do we, because those other criteria aren't listed. Scholastic performance is important, but sometimes other things are important as well, can even allow a person to contribute more and have a sense of self-worth that is more than just the sum of their academic performance. For example, do you consider yourself to be worthy to do your job only due to your past academic performance, or due to the sum of your experiences?

    Some things are worth becoming indignant over - and subtle racism described as rants against unfairness has become one of those things for me.

    No more shallow than the other math presented here, dumbed down as we all do in an attempt to explain things more easily.

    Well I have, using my experience as a practicing engineer that does perform complex statistical analysis, I've given an opinion that the statistics presented seem flawed. As with the MSM, I don't have the time nor the raw data to independently analyze it properly, and so can just give an opinion.

    I've not been shown that one person has been passed up based on merit, just summary statistics.
    Shame on you for distilling every issue down to a label.

    Notice the difference though: I clearly called it an opinion ("rant"), indicated it contained hyperbole, but also some valid points. (And interesting enough, Biker agreed with some of the points there as well; is he now a Leftist or Liberal as well?) To me, a big difference in my post and yours embracing a report without any consideration of the possible issues with it.
  12. mikeky

    mikeky Member

    There's a third alternative - the worth of a person is more than just his or her test score or class ranking.
  13. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    Right, they're black. That's what makes them more valuable. That is racism.

    By the way... You forgot to say "holistic" a half dozen times in your response to Leon.
  14. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    And you also know that since we do not work in admissions and don't have the time in our personal lives to go over every file, we obviously will not be able to provide you with a name. Congrats, you have successfully built an insurmountable wall, despite what evidence to the contrary you have been presented with.
  15. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Unreal. Just unreal. I saw that and I was like, it's not even worth it. He lives in the same world as Joseftu and the rest of them.
  16. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Reverse discrimination is still discrimination or otherwise you wouldn't need to use the word 'discrimination' to describe what you're talking about.
  17. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    I giggled most mightily when I read this.

  18. mikeky

    mikeky Member

    <br /><br /><br /> Ok, so the alternative is that they are black, had a median ACT score 4 points less than the average white median score, and so they are not valuable?

    Well let's apply that to everything then, including here. Let's post ACT/SAT scores, GPAs, class rank along with our opinions so we can properly judge which one is more valuable.
  19. mikeky

    mikeky Member

    <br /><br /><br />
    No you can't, but CEO could have indicated exactly how many white students could have possibly been excluded in their report, had they chosen, instead of just presenting a questionable (in my opinion of course) statistic that, in their words, can be difficult to interpret in simple terms.

    And that would still leave the problem of considering other factors (where they gifted artists, musicians, athletes, etc.) that may have played a part in admission? It's just not so black and white.
  20. mikeky

    mikeky Member

    <br /><br /><br />
    You know, I'm not definitely sure where I stand on affirmative action in every case, think it is a complex issue that needs to be looked at in every circumstance. But I do know that presenting misleading statistics (in my opinion of course) doesn't add much value to the discourse.

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