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What if?

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by Sam, Jan 10, 2003.

  1. Sam

    Sam Cute and cuddly!

    After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six and injured 1,000; President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

    After the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military personnel; President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

    After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 and injured 200 U.S. military personnel; President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

    After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and injured 5,000; President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

    After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 39 U.S. sailors; President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

    Maybe if President Clinton had kept his promise, nearly 3,300 people in New York and Washington, D.C. that are now dead would be alive today.

    AN INTERESTING QUESTION:


    This question was raised on a Philly radio call-in show. Without casting stones, it is a legitimate question. There are two men, both extremely wealthy. One develops relatively cheap software and gives billions of dollars to charity. The other sponsors terrorism. That being the case,
    why is it that the Clinton Administration spent more money chasing down Bill Gates over the past eight years than Osama bin Laden? THINK ABOUT IT!
     
  2. btdude

    btdude Veteran Member

    nevermind
     
  3. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    As much as I dislike and bash Clinton I am very careful in looking in hindsight.

    What if, despite all those things mentioned above, we still lacked strength in immigration laws, and porous borders. We would have, instead of 3000 dying in WTC, Pentagon, and flight 93, hundred of thousans die because someone snuck in and detonated a dirty bomb?
     
  4. Sam

    Sam Cute and cuddly!

    Very true Ethics.
    A friend e-mailed that to me and I thought it might spark some conversation.

    Personally I feel we can't live life fully if we always wonder what if in hindsight. I just try to do what is best for the people I care about.
     
  5. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    And, I guess, that's all we can, at the moment. :(
     
  6. jamming

    jamming Banned

    Yes, hindsight is 20-20, but these questions are asked all the time about our involvement in Afghanistan under Reagan, so why not hold Clinton up to the same standard?

    Your comment about lack of legislation for immigration control, just look what happened with registration enforcement. People screaming it is the end of the world as we know it.
     
  7. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    I care not. These days any new enforcement will be met by one form of whining or another.

    And yes, people question Reagan, let them. I questioned Clinton with all of the questions above. However, in every tragedy I try to look for a positive. What 9/11 taught us, or SHOULD have taught us is many things. To NOT learn from those things would be more than a sin.
     
  8. jamming

    jamming Banned

    In 100% agreement, but look at the way Ashcroft is treated, everytime he proposes a change, it is bound to effect more cowardly poll driven politicians. But ethics, do you agree that Israel is a lot better at controlling its borders than us? They still have incidents with their checkpoints and other physical controls. No system is 100% in this endeavor.
     
  9. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    I definitely think that if the US wanted to control their borders, they would do so. It benefits too much for the rich though, hence why this problem will not go away in the US.
     
  10. Omar

    Omar Registered User

    It would have happened anyway, Sam.

    People must start using their noodle and admit, digest, and look at the feces of this manner. These were crazy people who used Middle East and Islam as an excuse to fly under, not because of it.

    Here, in Jordan, interesting research is coming out that the four main parties were legally, or they would be here, mentally unstable.
     
  11. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Omar, a very interesting point. In most states here however, we do hold the mentally unstable accountable for the majority of their acts...not the least of which is flying a fuel laden craft into a building. The dividing line is whether or not they knew, at the time of the act, the difference between right and wrong.
     
  12. bruzzes

    bruzzes Truthslayer

    What remains muddled to all Americans is the transference of blame to all Arabs and or Islams rather than to the individuals or organizations that carried out or sponsored the acts of terrorism.

    It is a gross over generalization similar to mob psychology.

    Unfortunately, this is the prevailing view on both sides of the coin.
    It has always been us vs them. When religion is involved, the transference becomes even worse.

    I may be simplistic here, but until the governments and the religious leaders treat this condition as a strict law and order matter it will continue.

    I only wish that it could be seen in that black and white issue rather than with all the emotions currently attached.

    When the governments, religious and political leaders refuse to deal with these matters, and the subsequent acts of terror pass national boundaries, then the world community must be galvanized and national sovereignty becomes threatened.

    I fear war becomes the only alternative.
    It becomes a moral right fraught with emotion rather than rationality. We have reached that stage, and with emotion ruling the rationale, the world is truly on a perilous path.

    Until one can visualize the whole world as one body and equate the conditions in that one body with the necessary co-operation one needs in it's parts to remain healthy and viable then all humanity will experience this cancer.

    Self policing is needed for the individual and self policing is needed for all the world.
     
  13. Omar

    Omar Registered User

    History being a teacher, you do not only hold those accountable that were mentally unstable, you hold most Arabs and Muslims accountable for 11-9.

    Not good, Mr. Coot.
     
  14. Omar

    Omar Registered User

    I could not agree more.
     
  15. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    I'm not sure that's the prevailing attitude, though. I disagree here, bruzzes. On a national scale, we haven't metered our response that way, as obviously we haven't invaded Egypt; on an individual level, you cannot ever control the thoughts of a person.

    My personal feeling, the way I react to this, is not holding blame of the 9-11 tragedy to all Arabs or to all of Islam.

    What we CAN hold Arabs and Islam accountable for is their actions <B>after</B> the tragedy. We can ask "What are you doing to assist in this NOT happening again?" It's a very legitimate question.

    In this regard, there are elements of the Arab and Islamic world that are, for a lack of a better word, indifferent. And that indifference will invite criticism.
     
  16. Coriolis

    Coriolis Bob's your uncle

    Although it is a legitimate question, there's clearly no simple answer. I think it's unfortunate that you want to blame Muslims in the Middle East for their indifference post 9/11, and I don't think you can do so without placing some of the blame <i>for</i> that prevailing viewpoint on the west, and the US in particular. Understanding why the indifference exists is very important, and should not be dismissed. The Middle Eastern view of the US is wrought with feelings of betrayal and humiliation, the disgrace of its sanctities defiled, due to decades of American meddling in ME affairs. Whether right or wrong, these are real feelings that are not easily overcome. Many of these feelings are, in my view, justified. Some clearly are not. Militant Islamic factions, with their intense hatred of the west, have no doubt tainted the Muslim view of America, but probably no more so than they've tainted our view of the Muslim world. We need to look beyond that, and I think if we do, we won't so quick to lay the blame at their feet without taking a close look at ourselves first.
     
  17. pupowski

    pupowski Banned

    They can ask the same question of us,and point out US indifference to Israeli war crimes against palestineans. Why should they care about our dead, when we don't care about theirs?
     
  18. Stanley Engel

    Stanley Engel Registered User

    Why should we not blame Arabs and Islam? There was cheering in the streets when the Palestinians heard of 9-11. Business Week magazine a few months after 9-11 quoted a Saudi professor as saying most Saudis emotionally supported the terrorists. BBC had a "town meeting" between participants in New York City and Pakistan. A Palistani woman talked of lack of American understanding for their anger? Anger over what? American support for Israel. That was why the USA was targeted on September 11, 2001.

    After 9-11 there were some staged "protests" against "terror". But anyone could see these were contrived garbage to avoid the wrath of America.

    What does the Islamic world really feel about terror? Acts by Palestinians are not terrorist in their view. Here are the words of the Organization of the Islamic Conference: "We reject any attempt to link terrorism to the struggle of the Palestinian people in the exercise of their inalienable right to establish their independent state with Al-Quds Al-Sharif as its capital" That resolution was adopted in Kuala Lumpur on April 2, 2002. Need I mention that the OIC made no reference to the Park Hotel Seder bombing in Israel a few days earlier?

    My view is that populations are responsible for vicious acts committed in their name. For instance, only a minority of White Southerners owned slaves in the 19th century but the majority supported that evil institution. Only a minority of Germans committed any atrocity in WW2 but the goals of the Nazi regime were shared by the vast majority. The same could be said of many other nations that have committed vicious acts. Among them I would list Britain, Belgium, France, Holland and the USA. The present terrorist situation is the fault of most, but not all Muslims and Arabs.
     
  19. civax

    civax Main-Monkey

    Not saying that Israel doesn't make mistakes or wrong choices (all which is usually happen in a war), could you please elaborate on any "war crimes" allegedly done by Israel??

    Expressing only my personal view, of course, I do not throw a blame on all Arabs and all Muslims. I do feel there is a great deal of terrorism that stand on religious agenda, which happen to be Islamic this time in history. I do not think Islam itself if a violent religion in it's basic. It actually was composed to UNITE the tribes. Please remember that the Arab world had a golden age when Christians were the violent lot, swamping the middle east in religious crusades, during the middle ages. Actually, if it wasn't for Arabs, almost none of the wisdom of the ancient Greeks, Romans etc would be available today.

    I'm not saying Muslim violence shouldn't be fought against. I thing the Islamic based terrorism (opposed to, say other types of terrorism agendas) is the worst kind and should NOT be tolerated at all. I do think there is a problem with today's interpretation of Islam. But I wouldn't go as far as marking every Muslim a terrorist.
     
  20. Perry Stroika

    Perry Stroika Member

    Poodles don't last in Russia. They are smart but intelligence in a sea of barbarism from other dogs will not have you survivi. I think the Poodle try to make other dogs understand why having teeth and canines is bad, why peace is better, but in the end, they die by them.
     

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