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Waaaaay beyond Carnivore...

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by Sunriser13, Nov 21, 2002.

  1. Sunriser13

    Sunriser13 Knee Deep in Paradise



    What do you think? Do you, as I, have serious doubts that the government:
    1) Can even implement such a system <i>successfully</i>?
    2) Will be able to maintain the security of such a system?

    This is serious stuff for privacy advocates; is it the beginning of the end for personal, private or confidential information? I, for one, even have a fit about those damn grocery store discount cards...
  2. mikeky

    mikeky Member

    I still have serious doubts about the application and the ability of the government to get data providers to comply. At least I hope so.
  3. tke711

    tke711 Oink Oink Staff Member

    I too have some serious doubts that the government will be able to build and/or maintain a database this large and inclusive.

    Unfortunately, they will probably spend millions and millions of dollars trying, with the only results being the erosion of our privacy and the wasting of more of our tax dollars.
  4. immortal one

    immortal one 501st Geronimo

    Time to write some more letters to our elected officials, and voice our displeasure.
  5. Misu

    Misu Hey, I saw that.

    Honestly, I have a little voice inside me telling me that the database construction is already well under way - the fact they made a public announcement only tells me that it WILL be implemented.
  6. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    I have to agree.

  7. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    The next move, to make this thing be as accurate as possible is the abolition of currency. Everyone has an account and plastic and all financial transactions will be handled and dutifully logged.
  8. jamming

    jamming Banned

    Actually, all this does partly is allow Echelon to be turned inward. To take away one of the reasons we cooperate with the UK on Echelon, but I wouldn't worry about it to much:

    This will be checking certain sorts of Red Flag Behaviors with Criminal/Intelligence Records. Your Credit Card purchasing behaviors are all ready tracked by your company and the central clearing houses that the business you use utalize to make the transactions. For instance, from your credit card they know what your numerical street address is, your zipcode, the last four digits of you SSN. The little discount cards you use at Grocery Stores allow them to keep track of your food purchases. It is all coming, a little bit at a time, some people believe they are able to identify the amount of money you are carrying from a distance or when you pass through airport scanners. People lost this battle for being secure against this a long time back.
  9. Pyrion

    Pyrion Liquid Metal Nanomorph

    IMHO, civil liberties come second to national security.

    That having been said, I don't see how this is going to "improve" anything, especially by announcing it to the world. People are going to change their buying habits if it really worries them, the "terrorists" included, and all they'll be doing is wasting hard drive space collecting data that'll be inherently worthless to them.
  10. Pyrion

    Pyrion Liquid Metal Nanomorph

    As for tracking food purchases, I couldn't give a shit less if they know what I'm buying. Gimme a price discount and stock the store with more of what I like to buy and it's all good.
  11. mikeky

    mikeky Member

    I think I know what you mean, but there is a point (and not a very far point) where this is not true, at least for me. Our founding documents sum it up by saying life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and provide for the common defense; not life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness or provide for the common defense.

    Edit: Preamble, Declaration of Independence, all the same right? (embarrassingly slips off for a history refresher).
  12. tke711

    tke711 Oink Oink Staff Member

    I think that if it would be used for its intended purpose, and only its intended purpose, it wouldn't scare me as much as it does. I still would disagree with it, but it wouldn't scare me.

    However, the fact remains that our government seems to have a disorder known as "function creep". One easy example is our Social Security number. It was originally designed to identify us for collecting retirement money. Of course, the "function creep" is that it is now used as the primary identifier of people in this country regardless of age and has made identity theft incredibly easy.

    I just fear what other uses the government will come up with for this database in the future.
  13. Misu

    Misu Hey, I saw that.

    I agree with TKE 110% - the perfect example of what makes me fear this new tracking system under the name of National Security is your SS#. It's not being used solely for it's intended purpose anymore - for me, it's my STUDENT ID number as well. AND, it's on my Driver's license.
  14. Pyrion

    Pyrion Liquid Metal Nanomorph

    My reasoning for "national security over civil liberties" is that civil liberties aren't all that useful if the nation is under attack and/or you DIE from said hostility.
  15. Misu

    Misu Hey, I saw that.

    Phyre, they have other ways of detecting terrorist activities without watching what products you buy at the local supermarket or Best Buys.

    I would understand if they wanted to keep track of who was making huge purchases of Fire arms and ammo, such as with Branch Davidian. I can understand them wanting to keep track of who purchases things that can blow up, to avoid another OKC bombing. But there's no need for them to keep track of your purchases at regular stores. And that's what it looks like they're doing.

    If you take out money from you bank account to purchase a car, in cash, say 10k (which isn't uncommon for a lot of people to do - you save up and want to buy the car in cash). Taking that money out and purchasing a car in cash already raises a red flag, and you are now a suspect and you WILL be watched. What the hell is that?

    And who can assure us that the government won't sell database information to companies like Proctor and Gamble or Sony? Right now these companies spend a fortune collecting this sort of data on their own. It takes tremendous man power to collect information that isn't easily gotten. Who's to say our government won't fortify it's budget by selling off this information?

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