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Video: Police pepper-spray passive students

Discussion in 'Society and Culture' started by Greg, Nov 19, 2011.

  1. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    First video I've seen of the minutes before the pepper spray. Different perspective. Shows the UCSD PD giving a final warning to the students. Shows the crowd a lot better, too.

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MGagKL_tvS8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  2. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Thanks, that's helpful actually. I don't think he used the word Pepper Spray though, just "physical force". The crowd that got sprayed wasn't the one chanting and screaming either.
  3. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    There is one HQ video that is 10 minutes long of the incident that shows things playing out and the video and audio is from different spots and angles during the 10 minute time frame. It all confirms the same thing. Somebody made a bad tactical and PR decision to use the pepper spray.

    By the way note the body language and attitudes of the Campus Cops doing the spraying. Relaxed, calm, and matter of fact, it is as if they are out spraying insecticide on the rose bushes. I wonder why they were so non-chalant and relaxed even though they were wearing helmets and shields?

    If the decision was made individually by the cops who did the spraying then they should be disciplined and trained.
    If the decision was made by the Chief who was present than she should be disciplined.
    If the decision was made by someone on the University staff who ordered the police to do the spaying they should be punished.

    Anyone who is proved to lie about all of this should be fired.

    If the decision came from the civilian authorities to the cops to use the pepper spray at the very least the chief should have said professionally and civilly:

    "Yes sir, I will execute you order if that is what you really want us to do. But I respectfully suggest that you reconsider and that we take either no action at this moment or we use some other tactics available to us including even possible at this moment doing nothing--at least for now. Using the pepper spray on completely passive and sitting unarmed students isn't the best choice of tactics and it is also isn't the best action from a PR standpoint with the whole world watching and hundreds of innocent people in the immediate area who might be exposed to risk by using the pepper spray. There are all ways choices and I think if you consider all the factors using pepper spray at this moment is the best way to go. Remember we have the luxury of time to think about this. No one is or nothing is forcing us to act immediately or how to act. But if you disagree and want us to use the spray, we will of course follow your order."

    It was the pepper spraying that caused both directly and indirectly all of the injuries, outrage, bad PR, and was not necessary at the time and place it was used. Now we have a big time national investigation and news exposure.
  4. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    Why are people making a big deal about body language here? How would you like them to be standing? Hulk Hogan poses? I'd call it calm and professional, just like I'd want and expect my cops to look if I were chief.

    I'd say the helmets are a prudent call, given the way other OWS demonstrations have played out. There's no law or reg that says lawbreakers are allowed a free shot at cops.
  5. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    Bob, your emotions are so out of control you cannot read anything in context or accurately that doesn't support and stand up or back the cops.

    The body language is an important point not because it is "a big deal" as you inaccurately represent it along with the pour gas on the fire irrational Hulk Hogan analogy. Yes it is calm and professional. CALM being the key word.

    No one criticizes the cops for the helmets. The point is:

    The police were properly attired for trouble. That's why the helmets and shields. Fine. Absolutely the correct call. However, usually when you see interaction between police and protestors or demonstrators and the cops have riot gear including helmets and shields and often also batons drawn and shields the action or interaction isn't exactly calm and laid back.

    But here the cops prepared for the worse, helmets and shields being one part, discover that there is no threat. No threat whatsoever of any kind. So laid back are their "targets" that when they pepper spray them they don't have to be in a defensive posture or be tense, agitated or defensive. No they KNOW and SEE that the protestors are NO THREAT to them so they appropriately move about leisurely and calmly, deliberately all most relaxed as they empty the two large canisters as of pepper spray as if they were walking around the spraying pesticide on rose bushes. Why? Because they knew the protesters were no threat and not any trouble or risk to them or anyone else. Nothing bad was going to happen proactively from the protestors. The cops KNEW they were in no danger and the targets of the mass pepper spraying were completely passive.

    Circumstantial evidence that spraying them with pepper spray was inappropriate.

    You have become IMO totally tunnel visioned and obsessed one perspective on this issue no matter what anyone says, what evidence or opinions and observations are presented.

    I honestly don't know, and I know mean this disrespectfully why you even continue to post on this topic in this thread. You are just repeating yourself without offering anything new and demonstrate an inability to understand what is even being said--irrespective of what being said is accurate or not.

    I don't know how long you were a Campus Policeman and I assume you were a full fledged sworn peace officer with a POST certificate but I am surprised not that you have the opinion that you do but rather the narrowness and rigidity of your opinion and the inability to frequently even understand what others are saying.
  6. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    Wait. My Hulk Hogan analogy is "pour gas on the fire irrational," but "spraying insecticide on the rose bushes" is okay?

    Sigh. Whatever. :dontknow:

    Arc, cops can be perfectly calm dealing with people even if they are threatened. It's part of the professionalism aspect.
    2 people like this.
  7. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    They should have used tear gas, not pepper spray. Nobody would even be criticizing them if they had used tear gas.
  8. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    After this post I'll try to limit my posting on this thread until there is something substantially new that develops. (I'm very confident Bratton will get the facts exactly right as to who said what to who and so on.)

    Bob, calm as in relaxed, kicked back, not alert or worried because there was nothing to even concern themselves except emptying the pepper spray cans. The cops were that way because there was no threat, no tension, no worries about the people the cops were about to spray. Doesn't take any special training for that.

    As far as calm in the context you state there is a difference speaking generally and globally in acting calmingly and professionally versus feeling calm inside. Cops as just the same as non-cops, or what you might classify as ordinary people. Cops thinking they are special or different is part of their problem.
  9. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    They think they are special in that they have permission to use force. The countless excessive force cases prove that they often get the situation wrong.
  10. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    I dare you to objectively compare all uses of force versus the excessive force complaints that are found true. I bet it's a lot different than "countless" and "often."

    That is, for any given department, get a count of all uses of force for a period. Then get a count of all excessive force complaints that are upheld, where local review found that the officer(s) used excessive force. I bet the percentage is pretty damned small.
  11. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    No shit. Seriously.

    But Bob, Arc SUPPORTS the police, don't you know? He said so!

    Whatever indeed.

    So small it almost doesn't register. As IAD investigator for our department for a year, I tallied these stats for our agency, anyway. We had not one single incident of excessive force during that year. And we had literally hundreds of use of force incidents, from tasers to shootings to batons, every day something was coming in that needed to be examined.

    That said, even one excessive force is not good. But to use the term "often" with regards to use of force is complete bullshit.
    3 people like this.
  12. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    One more video from a variety of angles and locations. This seems to show things leading up to and including the last clip I posted. It's very illuminating to listen to what the protestors are chanting. They're trying to force UCPD to release people who were arrested shortly before the viral clip. There are a lot more students and protestors out there, and it looks as though there were a lot more UC cops than any first realized from the viral clip.

    If you listen closely to the UC cop at 7:46 or so, he does specifically warn the protestors that "pepper [garbled] will be deployed."

    The more video that is discovered and released, the more I think these cops were very disciplined and controlled in their responses.

  13. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    I am not arguing on how controlled they were, I'm still waiting on research and investigation as to what was appropriate for police to use at the time. I'm sure the investigator has access to all these videos and will make his decision based on that and other facts.
    As an aside, I was pleasantly surprised that Instapndit's Glen Reynolds is a bit worried about the "militarization of our police force".
    1 person likes this.
  14. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    Radley Balko, formerly at Reason magazine, has been writing about that for years now.
  15. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    You don't agree?
  16. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    Oh yeah, I agree there are problems. SWAT has its place, but its definitely overused.
  17. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    We finally agree , Bob, and that's basically what I'm trying to say from the beginning in this thread. I'm not seeking punishment, I'm seeking clarity for both the public AND the police.
    1 person likes this.
  18. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    Given the situation it was neither the time or circumstance to use the pepper spay when they did. All of the injuries and physical altercations happen after the spraying. Again look at the body language of the officer who did most of the spraying. It was not that of a man who was tense or stressed. Face shield up he all most leisurely applied the pepper spray. I point that out to show the situation not to criticize how he moved or acted or am I suggesting he should have acted different while applying the pepper spray. IMO he acted as I described because there was no significant threat to them at that time or any other reason to justify them using the spray. The police had other choices AND time to do something else or take some action to change the situation. The one out that they may have IMO is if turns out that someone from the administration with authority over them ordered them to do it. And sorry to be redundant, if that is so, I would hope that if that was so that the chief who was on site would have said upon hearing the order that she recommended not to use the spray at that point in time. Naturally, if the that recommendation was discarded and the order was given they would be expected to execute it.

    I look forward to reading the facts and conclusions that will come out after Bratton and his professional investigation team finishes the investigation of the whole affair. It will be IMO a complete and accurate total picture of the situation whether or not one agrees or disagrees with the use of the spray under whatever those circumstances turn out to be.

  19. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    You know, one of the signs of a good leader is that they remain calm, cool & collected, to keep their staff calm.

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