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Video: Police pepper-spray passive students

Discussion in 'Society and Culture' started by Greg, Nov 19, 2011.

  1. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    Cops were wrong in this particular situation to use the pepper spray the way they did and when they did. When it comes to the fate of a cop accused of wrong doing or misconduct as opposed to a training error cops get better due process than civilians do by far and cops are in most cases that go the route of formal process are the cause of their fate if it turns out bad for them. It's the cops fault in those specific situations, not the public, victims, or those doing the prosecuting.

    Give cops, the global community, a weapon and besides any legitimate situation where its use is needed they will find plenty of situations to use it just to use it even if its not justified. (I think the only class of person or situation that I haven't heard of the cops tasing someone is in the case of a quadriplegic. But give them time. )

    Give a cop a weapon of any kind from an irritant to a deadly force or anything in between and they will find a situation to use it including both proper and improper. The latter is dramatically greater when there are no witnesses or cameras around.

    The cops are the own worse enemies and all most all ways refuse to except responsibility for when they do something blatantly wrong regardless of the reason or the motive.

    In this case of pepper spraying at UC Davis they made a bad decision and innocents people got hurt and injured and caught up in violence that was initiated by the police or triggered by their use of the pepper spray. It wasn't a heinous, vile, or malicious evil bad decision. Just an overtly bad tactical decision. Two officers are on administrative leave because of it. (Oh the humanity.) Other then any civil actions which no one can control the two cops probably will go back to work and whether they do or not the police action is a training issue not an overt black and white crime.

    As I said earlier management of AEG, (the largest entertain and sports presenter in the world), wanted to have public safety officers and security equipped with pepper spray at Staples Center, LA Live, and Home Depot Stadium among other places in Los Angeles. I presented the case why that was not a good idea. There were those in the security division that disagreed. Management listen to both sides and unanimously agreed with my opinion.
     
  2. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    Easy way to prevent OC-triggered asthma attacks: don't get pepper-sprayed. Don't behave in a manner that will get you pepper-sprayed. Obey the nice police officer when they tell you that you're under arrest. Better yet, don't break the law, thus forcing the nice police officer to arrest you.

    I have as much sympathy for these protestors as I do for a burglar who breaks their leg climbing out of your house.
     
  3. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    That's on par with comparing Cops with Nazi. I don't know if the irony escaped you.

    Protester sitting peacefully (although blocking way) = a burglar who climbs in to your property with intent to take shit.
    Your logic and approach about this issue is so bias it's not even funny although the responses from you in this thread are so not surprising.
     
  4. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    Well, I suppose we need to simply stop producing it and giving it to police altogether, that and the Taser that people are so horrified by as well. Because there will never be an incident where people on the receiving end aren't exposed to some level of risk.
     
  5. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Never said that. I said in this particular incident, it wasn't appropriate. But hey, why don't we wait on the ruling?
     
  6. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    Oh, and batons too. And... well, those handcuffs can cause injury also. And you know, those police lights can cause epileptic seizures. We need to eliminate the use of those. It also causes anxiety attacks in people.
     
  7. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    Because it's being tried in the press right now. The Chancellor apologizing, the police chief being suspended, none of that is due process. No, let's try it right here and now, let's not wait. Nobody else is, and certainly nobody in California.
     
  8. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    Sorry, but that's a really stupid move.

    You're putting people in the position of trying to control folks with no tools except their fists. The whole idea behind the bat-belt crap that cops carry is to give them different tools and tactics to deal with different situations. What are the security people supposed to do when presence and voice don't work? Wait, I know: Approach and repeat ultimatum in an even firmer tone of voice. Add the words "or else."

     
    1 person likes this.
  9. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Really? I am not seeing that.


    While I have your attention, you trust WSJ, right? I mean it's certainly not a Left wing rag. Probably as fair of as assessment on the health effects of PSpray as we will get. I loved this linked study:
    http://duketox.mc.duke.edu/pepper%20spray.pdf

    The Health Effects of Pepper Spray - Health Blog - WSJ
     
  10. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    It was indeed a stupid move. But Arc tends to find fault in most police action, same as he accuses me of defending police action. I have worked in IAD, however, and have seen real police misconduct, and have built cases in which officers were fired. In fact, I reported a corrupt officer just a few months ago, and the officer may well be indicted. One thing I do know, however, is when you have to use force, pepper spray is nothing but an irritant. It's unpleasant, but people not affiliated with law enforcement object to it and the Taser as strongly as if you had shot someone, just like Greg's analogies of Nazis and shooting. We're entering a time when police profession is so handcuffed and micromanaged that the good guy becomes the bad guy, and the bad guy becomes the good guy. With that happening, the best move is not to play the game.
     
  11. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    OMG that's HORRIBLE! Okay, let's eliminate it and go back to the batons.

    Every use of force has risk, Leon, and is what we are trying to explain to all of you. Prying them apart, grappling, batons, pepper spray, tasers, all have risk. Pepper spray is less prone to permanent injury than grappling, which can tear ligaments, cause abrasions, contusions, even *gasp* break bones.
     
  12. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Just their fists? Awwww poor babies. So I guess Copzilla is right, might as well take away the cuffs, the batons, the guns, because Cops only have their tiny little fists that they can beat against the chest of a protester. [​IMG]

    And what's with the movie link? Linking stuff that has nada to do with this case but generalize and "woes is I" the shit out of it. If it's not in the video, let's make shit up, link some movies, throw in some idiotic quotes from Anonymous (who was a drunk druggie but not one knows this) and try to gain sympathies for those poor police officers who have nothing but their tiny fists for protection.

    Can I try?



    See? Nothing to do with this case but I threw in there for a little "umph" for my case. No matter that this makes me feel like a shill for "my side" but hey, maybe someone will vote my post up!
     
  13. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    I used to think we could have rational discussions here on this forum.

    :popcorn:
     
  14. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    You have no idea what security tools or personnel AEG uses in the venues I mentioned do you?

    You have no idea what type of people or crowd situations we are dealing with at the venues I mention do you?

    You have no idea what reasons I used in my presentation on why the people in question should not have pepper spray.

    You have no idea what other professional groups may have supported my position do you?

    You have no idea why the AEG management chose my position over those who had an opposing point of view do you?

    You have no idea what if any fall out resulted in the decision was made do you? (Was it a successful result or not?)

    You have no idea of the above because you never asked.

    "You have no idea" sums up your knowledge and level of information on this particular specific circumstance with AEG do you?
     
  15. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    It's not HORRIBLE, but it's not exactly a walk in a park as the way you've described it in the beginning of this thread.

    .

    We know that. Why wouldn't you think we already knew that? NYPD used physical force, while the same crowd criticized it, it was more of same old same old. This? This is a friggin meme on the internet now. Great PR for all PO -- mostly good, no?


     
  16. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    Now its being stated as set in stone that the specific actions, using the pepper spray, by the campus police at UC Davis were directly ordered in specific terms by the Chancellor of the University. If that is so, and I belileve it likely is then no fault should be laid upon the police. However, I would have expected that when the order to come down for the responsible and correct tactical not to mention common sense reaction by the the officer in charge on scene would to be to have advised professionally and politely against it and why so. If the chancellor stuck to her guns, which she obviously did then and what went down went down exactly as laid out here then the cops are completely in the clear as far as I'm concerned as far as the use of the pepper spray.
     
  17. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Arc, if that's the case then yeah, changes the whole paradigm of the whole issue. I can't blame cops for following a direct order. They could question it but, nah, totally different discussion.
    IF this is the case, so much for hippie Cali folk hating and blaming the cops.
     
  18. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    Arc, do you have a link? All I'm finding is stories about her putting the chief and two cops on leave.
     
  19. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    You don't understand ethics. There is us, the whole world of people not in LE and then there are them, LE or cops. You don't understand because you haven't had training as a cop.

    With cops it too often comes down to us (cops) versus them (the rest of the world) and the whole world is out to get the poor [strike]tribe or clan [/strike] fraternity of law enforcement.
     
  20. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    All except for the whole notion that police are obligated to disregard an illegal order, even one from the chancellor. So if you're saying they used excessive force, it doesn't matter who gave the order to do so.

    Yes, it very much is us vs. them. This is what happens when untrained civilians interfere and/or dictate to the police. You have illustrated it yourself.
     

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