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USSR Apologists

Discussion in 'Society and Culture' started by Ivan Drago, Apr 27, 2011.

  1. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Wow, you lost me with your denial of the Holodor and how Stalin was responsible.

    Revelations from the Russian Archives

    How old are you, btw? Over 50?
  2. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    Source? Proof? Anything?


    Well I can't translate everything, but since you read Russian, here's a very good article supported by documents.

    I'll translate a small part for other forum members in case they care to know.

    Grain produced (mln. tons)
    1930-31	1931-32	1932-33	1933-34
    Volga Region 	3	2.7	3	3.1
    North Caucasus  2.3	3.3	1.9	2.3
    Kazakhstan 	0.8	0.8	0.7	0.6
    RSFSR total 	13.8	14.8	13.7	15.7
    Ukraine 	7.7	7.3	4.2	6.7
    USSR total 	22.1	22.8	18.5	22.7
    As you can see, the production fell drastically. The government tried to compensate by importing from other regions and relocating people from Ukraine, however losses couldn't be avoided because the USSR total grain production fell by 19%! That's huge. Of course a million and a half died as a result, even though we had over 170 million people.

    This pretty much proves that Stalin didn't come and take their grain and ate it himself, this proves that Ukraine suffered a drought. Unless Stalin was somehow able to create one, he's got nothing to do with it. You are yet to provide a single piece of evidence of his involvement.

    There is a book called "Why did Stalin resettled nations?" (За что Сталин выселял народы) which I'd recommend you to read. Chechens for example betrayed Russians and fought on the side of the Nazi.
    And how does resettling people constitute a genocide?

    I'll tell you about another genocide you're not aware of. When Yeltsin came to power, Chechens returned to their land and cut the throats of Russians in there. People wrote letters asking Yeltsin to save them. He did nothing. Most people had to leave in a hurry, unable to take anything with them. People who were unable to leave, their wives and motheres were raped and slaughtered. You can google, I assume? Type in "геноцид русских в чечне". Have fun reading all this disgusting dirt.

    When Stalin relocated Chechens he allowed them to take 100kg per person or a ton per family. This wasn't done in a hurry either. How does this constitute a genocide? Wonder why he did it? See what happened the moment they came back. See how they sided with Germans to exterminate Russian people. Cry for poor Chechens, go ahead.

    I'm from the 70s if you care to know.
  3. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    Hint - if you can't find anything to implicate Stalin in Holodomor despite furious efforts, have courage to review your opinion about him. Don't cling to your old beliefs if you can't prove them. You're a big boy now, you can read for yourself. You don't have to take your dissident mommy's and daddy's word for it, you can check it out for yourself.
  4. Stiofan

    Stiofan Master Po


    You're living in dreamland. Best not to feed the trolls, it only agitates them. Goodbye.
  5. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Yeah, I am sorry I've wasted my time here. Holodor denial is on par with Holocaust denial and I am no Ukie-phile. Hell, no wonder West Ukrainians despise these type of louses in Russia.
  6. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    The fact that USSR wasn't very open about its internal problems doesn't prove that they were evil or ate people alive or made them starve to death.
    I know this may sound weird, but if you think about it for an hour or so, it may start making sense in your brainwashed heads.

    I'm happy about how this discussion turned out. I provided facts and numbers (not to mention, even Ukraine doesn't regard Holodomor as a genocide), while you provided "IT'S A LIE! COMMUNISTS = FASCISTS! HOLODOMOR = HOLOCAUST!" without contributing anything relevant other than loony screams.

    Goodbye indeed.
  7. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Facts, research, and overwhelming evidenced proved, that USSR, indeed, fucked it's own people, starved millions, if you will. All for the sake of one douchebag that is still being defended by people like yourself.

    You've provided nothing more than what the mouthpieces for Stalin's apologists have been doing since his death. Your facts are not factual, there are arbitrary numbers dug out from a group of people's assholes and repeated in case someone mentions what Uncle Joe was doing, has done, and would have continued doing if he wasn't sick (or poisoned).

    So take your silly briefcase and go home to Moscow and tell them that you've tried to convince those stupid Americans how EVERYONE (I still chuckle at that) had a car and a dacha (summer home). Imagine that! As Smirnoff would say, "WHAT A COUNTRY!"
  8. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Speak of the devil:
  9. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    If it's overwhelming evidence, then where is it? Come on, counter my numbers, do something. You're stirring frantically like a fish on ice.

    People who defend Stalin by providing numbers from real archives are "Stalin apologists" to you. Whatever evidence surfaces, it's always "apologists". So by your own logic if Stalin was innocent, nobody on earth would be able to convince you of that. Then it's only logical to say that you're being heavily biased and unable to see things clearly. In short, you're brainwashed to the extreme.

    The same could happen in another way. For example, people would brainwash you that Jews are evil. And whatever evidence I'd provide, you'd say "that's Jews apologists" and refuse to consider my evidence. Good job, fascist.

    Upd: grammar mistakes corrected, reread.
  10. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    ^ Davies, Norman (2006). Europe East and West. London: Jonathan Cape. p. 145. ISBN 0224069241.
    ^ Baumeister, Roy (1999). Evil: Inside Human Violence and Cruelty. Macmillan. p. 179. ISBN 0805071652.
    ^ Sternberg, Robert (2008). The Nature of Hate. Cambridge University Press. p. 67. ISBN 0521896983.
    ^ a b c d - "The famine of 1932–33", Encyclopædia Britannica. Quote: "The Great Famine (Holodomor) of 1932–33—a man-made demographic catastrophe unprecedented in peacetime. Of the estimated six to eight million people who died in the Soviet Union, about four to five million were Ukrainians... Its deliberate nature is underscored by the fact that no physical basis for famine existed in Ukraine... Soviet authorities set requisition quotas for Ukraine at an impossibly high level. Brigades of special agents were dispatched to Ukraine to assist in procurement, and homes were routinely searched and foodstuffs confiscated... The rural population was left with insufficient food to feed itself."
    ^ a b Davies and Wheatcroft, p.415
    ^ Rosefielde, Steven. "Excess Mortality in the Soviet Union: A Reconsideration of the Demographic Consequences of Forced Industrialization, 1929-1949." Soviet Studies 35 (July 1983): 385-409
    ^ Timothy Snyder, Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin, p.53 (he states that this figure "must be substantially low, since many deaths were not recorded.")
    ^ a b "Наливайченко назвал количество жертв голодомора в Украине" (in Russian). lb.ua. 14.01.2010.
    ^ "Yulia Tymoshenko: our duty is to protect the memory of the Holodomor victims". 2010-11-27.
    ^ Naimark, Norman M. Stalin's Genocides (Human Rights and Crimes against Humanity). Princeton University Press, 2010. p. 70. ISBN 0-691-14784-1
    ^ a b c "Harper accused of exaggerating Ukrainian genocide death toll". Postmedia News. 2010-10-30. Retrieved 2010-11-22.
    ^ According to Stephen G. Wheatcroft and Robert W. Davies, "The drought of 1931 was particularly severe, and drought conditions continue to 1932. This certainly helped to worsen the conditions to obtaining the harvest in 1932.", Challenging Traditional Views of Russian History, Palgrave: Macmillan, 2002, p. 77
    ^ "This famine therefore resembled the Irish famine of 1845-1848, but resulted from a litany of natural disasters that combined to the same effect as the potato blight had ninety years before, and in a similar context of substantial food exports", Mark B. Tauger, Natural Disasters and Human Actions in the Soviet Famine of 1931-1933, The Karl Beck Papers in Russian & East European Studies, 2001, p. 46.
    ^ Engerman, David (203). Modernization from the Other Shore. Harvard University Press. p. 194. ISBN 0674011511.
    ^ Josef Zisels; Halyna Kharaz. "Will Holodomor receive the same status as the Holocaust?". Citizens Action Network in Ukraine. Retrieved 2010-11-01.
    ^ a b Peter Finn, Aftermath of a Soviet Famine, The Washington Post, April 27, 2008, "There are no exact figures on how many died. Modern historians place the number between 2.5 million and 3.5 million. Yushchenko and others have said at least 10 million were killed."
    ^ a b c d Dr. David Marples, The great famine debate goes on..., ExpressNews (University of Alberta), originally published in Edmonton Journal, November 30, 2005
    ^ a b c d Stanislav Kulchytsky, "Holodomor of 1932–1933 as genocide: the gaps in the proof", Den, February 17, 2007, in Russian, in Ukrainian
    ^ a b c Yaroslav Bilinsky (1999). "Was the Ukrainian Famine of 1932–1933 Genocide?". Journal of Genocide Research 1 (2): 147–156. doi:10.1080/14623529908413948.
    ^ a b c Stanislav Kulchytsky, "Holodomor-33: Why and how?", Zerkalo Nedeli, November 25—December 1, 2006, in Russian, in Ukrainian.
    ^ a b c С. Уиткрофт (Stephen G. Wheatcroft), "О демографических свидетельствах трагедии советской деревни в 1931—1933 гг." (On demographic evidence of the tragedy of the Soviet village in 1931-1833), "Трагедия советской деревни: Коллективизация и раскулачивание 1927-1939 гг.: Документы и материалы. Том 3. Конец 1930-1933 гг.", Российская политическая энциклопедия, 2001, ISBN 5-8243-0225-1, с. 885, Приложение № 2
    ^ a b 'Stalinism' was a collective responsibility - Kremlin papers, The News in Brief, University of Melbourne, 19 June 1998, Vol 7 No 22
    ^ sources differ on interpreting various statements from different branches of different governments as to whether they amount to the official recognition of the Famine as Genocide by the country. For example, after the statement issued by the Latvian Sejm on March 13, 2008, the total number of countries is given as 19 (according to Ukrainian BBC: "Латвія визнала Голодомор ґеноцидом"), 16 (according to Korrespondent, Russian edition: "После продолжительных дебатов Сейм Латвии признал Голодомор геноцидом украинцев"), "more than 10" (according to Korrespondent, Ukrainian edition: "Латвія визнала Голодомор 1932-33 рр. геноцидом українців")
    ^ a b Joint Statement on the Great Famine of 1932-1933 in Ukraine (Holodomor) on Monday, November 10, 2003 at the United Nations in New York
    ^ Mordini, Emilio (2009). Identity, security and democracy: the wider social and ethical implications of automated systems for human identification. IOS Press. p. x. ISBN 1586039407.
    ^ Pourchot, Georgeta (2008). Eurasia rising: democracy and independence in the post-Soviet space. ABC-CLIO. p. 98. ISBN 0275999165.
    ^ a b Yanukovych reverses Ukraine's position on Holodomor famine, RIA Novosti, 27 April 2010
    ^ a b Interfax-Ukraine (27 April 2010). "Our Ukraine Party: Yanukovych violated law on Holodomor of 1932-1933". Kyiv Post. Retrieved 10 August 2010.
    ^ European Parliament resolution on the commemoration of the Holodomor, the Ukraine artificial famine (1932-1933)
    ^ "European Parliament recognises Ukrainian famine of 1930s as crime against humanity", European Parliament (Press Release 23-10-2008)
    ^ "Holodomor court hearings begin in Ukraine", Kyiv Post (January 12, 2010)
    ^ "Yushchenko brings Stalin to court over genocide", RT (January 14, 2010)
    ^ "Sentence to Stalin, his comrades for organizing Holodomor takes effect in Ukraine", Kyiv Post (January 21, 2010)
    ^ "PACE finds Stalin regime guilty of Holodomor, does not recognize it as genocide", RIA Novosti, April 28, 2010.
    ^ Holodomor 1933, accessed November 8, 2010
    ^ Werth, Nicolas; Donald Bloxham, A. Dirk Moses (editors) (2010). "Mass deportations, Ethnic Cleansing, and Genocidal Politics in the Latter Russian Empire and the USSR" in The Oxford Handbook of Genocide Studies. Oxford University Press. pp. 386–406. ISBN 0-19-923211-3, 9780199232116. p.396
    ^ Hryshko, 1978
    ^ Dolot, 1985
    ^ The Great Famine in Ukraine: the unknown holocaust, 1983
    ^ O. H. Musiienko, “Hromadians’ka pozytsiia literatury i perebudova” (The Civic Position of Literature and Perestroika), Literaturna Ukraina, February 18, 1988, pp. 7-8;
    ^ U.S. Congressional Commission on the Ukrainian Famine. "First Interim Report to Congress". genocidecurriculum.org. p. 67.
    ^ Mace James - "Vashi mertvi vybraly mene". (Your dead chose me) Kiev, 2008. (p.132)
    ^ Голодомор, in "Velykyi tlumachnyi slovnyk suchasnoi ukrainsʹkoi movy: 170 000 sliv", chief ed. V. T. Busel, Irpin, Perun (2004), ISBN 966-569-013-2
    ^ a b Helen Fawkes , Legacy of famine divides Ukraine, BBC News, 24 November 2006
    ^ „Голодомор 1932-33 років в Україні: документи і матеріали”/ Упорядник Руслан Пиріг; НАН України.Ін-т історії України.-К.:Вид.дім „Києво-Могилянська академія”, "Famine in Ukraine 1932-33: documents and materials / compiled by Ruslan Pyrig NAS Ukraine.In-t history Ukraine.-K.: Vyd.dim Kyiv Mohyla Academy 2007
    ^ R. W. Davies and Stephen G. Wheatcroft, The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933 . New York: Palgrave Macmillan 2010 ISBN 0-230-23855-6 pages 204
    ^ Tottle, Dougles (1987). Fraud, Famine, and Fascism: the Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard. Toronto: Progress Books. pp. 99. ISBN 0919396518.
    ^ "University of Toronto Data Library Service".
    ^ "Demoscope Weekly".
    ^ R. W. Davies and Stephen G. Wheatcroft, The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933 . New York: Palgrave Macmillan 2010 ISBN 0-230-23855-6 pages 470, 476
    ^ R. W. Davies and Stephen G. Wheatcroft, The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933 . New York: Palgrave Macmillan 2010 ISBN 0-230-23855-6 page XVIII
    ^ Холодомор – 2009. Accessed 6 November 2010.
    ^ Голод 1932-1933 років на Україні: очима істориків, мовою документів
    ^ http://www.facts.kiev.ua/archive/2008-11-21/92027/ Vasily Sokur, The author suggests that never in the history of mankind has cannibalism been so widespread as it was during the Holodomor. - . Accessed 21 November 2008.
    ^ Steven Bela Vardy and Agnes Huszar Vardy, "Cannibalism in Stalin's Russia and Mao's China", East European Quarterly, XLI, No. 2, 2007, Duquesne University
    ^ Holodomor Archives and Sources The State of the Art by Hennadii Boriak "The Harriman Review Vol. 16, No. 2" 2008 page 30
    ^ a b c d Timothy Snyder. (2010). Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin. New York: Basic Books, pp42-46
    ^ Timothy Snyder. (2010). Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin. New York: Basic Books pp.38-39
    ^ http://www.cdvr.org.ua/content/%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB-%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C-%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87-%D1%8F-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%8F%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%B2-%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%83%D1%86%D1%96%D1%8E-%D1%83%D0%BD%D1%80%C2%BB
    ^ in Russian and Valeriy Soldatenko, '"A starved 1933: subjective thoughts on objective processes", Zerkalo Nedeli, June 28, 2003 – July 4, 2003. (in Ukrainian)
    ^ BBC report
    ^ a b Laura Sheeter, "Ukraine remembers famine horror", BBC News, November 24, 2007
    ^ Stanislav Kulchytsky, "Reasons of the 1933 famine in Ukraine. Through the pages of one almost forgotten book", Zerkalo Nedeli, August 16–22, 2003 (in Russian).

    Quote: During the hearings, the Ukrainian politician Stepan Khmara said, "I would like to address the scientists, particularly, Stanislav Kulchytsky, who attempts to mark down the number of victims and counts them as 3–3.5 million. I studied these questions analyzing the demographic statistics as early as in 1970s and concluded that the number of victims was no less than 7 million." [http://www.zn.kiev.ua/ie/show/456/41284/ (in Ukrainian). However, Stanislav Kulchytsky in Демографічні наслідки голодомору 1933 р. в Україні. (Demographic consequence of Holodomor of 1933 in Ukraine), Canada and Kiev: Institute of History, 2003, p. 4, notes that the demographic data were opened only in late 1980s; Stepan Khmara had no access to such data in 1970s.
    ^ Viktor Yushchenko, "Holodomor", The Wall Street Journal, 27.11.2007
    ^ Ukrainian President Yushchenko: Yushchenko's Address before Joint Session of U.S. Congress
    ^ a b "Holocaust: The ignored reality". Eurozine. 2009-06-25. Retrieved 2010-11-22.
    ^ Valentin Berezhkov, "Kak ya stal perevodchikom Stalina", Moscow, DEM, 1993, ISBN 5-85207-044-0. p. 317
    ^ a b c d e f g Stanislav Kulchytsky, "How many of us perished in Holodomor in 1933", Zerkalo Nedeli, November 23–29, 2002. Available online in Russian and in Ukrainian
    ^ The Foreign Office and the famine : British documents on Ukraine and the Great Famine of 1932-1933, ed. by Marco Carynnyk, Lubomyr Y. Luciuk and Bohdan S. Kordan; Kingston, Ont. ; Vestal, N.Y. : Limestone Press, 1988, ISBN 0-919642-31-4.
    ^ a b Robert Conquest, The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine Oxford University Press New York (1986) ISBN 0-19-504054-6
    ^ Stalislav Kulchytsky, "Demographic losses in Ukrainian in the twentieth century", Zerkalo Nedeli, October 2–8, 2004 (in Russian), and [http://web.archive.org/web/20070313004842/http://www.zn.kiev.ua/ie/show/514/47913/ (in Ukrainian)
    ^ Stanislav Kulchytsky, Hennadiy Yefimenko. Демографічні наслідки голодомору 1933 р. в Україні. Всесоюзний перепис 1937 р. в Україні: документи та матеріали (Demographic consequence of Holodomor of 1933 in Ukraine. The all-Union census of 1937 in Ukraine), Kiev, Institute of History, 2003. pp. 42-63
    ^ Davies and Wheatcroft, p. 429
    ^ Davies and Wheatcroft, p. 512
    ^ a b Sergei Maksudov, "Losses Suffered by the Population of the USSR 1918–1958", in The Samizdat Register II, ed. R. Medvedev (London–New York 1981)
    ^ France Meslé, Gilles Pison, Jacques Vallin France-Ukraine: Demographic Twins Separated by History, Population and societies, N°413, juin 2005."What is striking in the long-term picture of Ukrainian life expectancy is the devastating impact of the calamities of the 1930s and 1940s (Fig.3). In 1933, the famine which had occasioned unparalleled excess mortality of 2.2 million (2), cut the period life expectancy to a low of under 10 years.[2]"
    ^ ce Meslé, Jacques Vallin Mortalité et causes de décès en Ukraine au XXè siècle + CDRom ISBN 2-7332-0152-2 CD online data (partially - http://www.ined.fr/fichier/t_publication/cdrom_mortukraine/cdrom.htm
    ^ a b Jacques Vallin; France Mesle, Serguei Adamets, Serhii Pyrozhkov (November 2002). "A New Estimate of Ukrainian Population Losses during the Crises of the 1930s and 1940s". Population Studies 56 (3): 249–264. doi:10.1080/00324720215934. JSTOR 3092980.
    ^ Robert Potocki, "Polityka państwa polskiego wobec zagadnienia ukraińskiego w latach 1930-1939" (in Polish, English summary), Lublin 2003, ISBN 83-917615-4-1
    ^ Служба безпеки України
    ^ SBU documents show that Moscow singled out Ukraine in famine 5tv - Ukraine Channel Five. 22 November 2006. Retrieved 23 November 2006
    ^ Mark Tauger. Published correspondence (pdf)
    ^ Comment on Wheatcroft by Robert Conquest, 1999
    ^ "Debate: Stalin and the Soviet Famine of 1932-33: A Reply to Ellman", in Europe-Asia Studies, vol. 58, No. 4, June 2006, pp.625-633. (note on conquest (p. 629))
    ^ "Debate: Stalin and the Soviet Famine of 1932-33: A Reply to Ellman", in Europe-Asia Studies, vol. 58, No. 4, June 2006, pp.625-633. (p. 626))
    ^ Ellman, Michael (09 2005). "The Role of Leadership Perceptions and of Intent in the Soviet Famine of 1931–1934" (PDF). Europe-Asia Studies (Routledge) 57 (6): 823–41. doi:10.1080/09668130500199392.
    ^ a b c d Michael Ellman, Stalin and the Soviet Famine of 1932-33 Revisited Europe-Asia Studies, Routledge. Vol. 59, No. 4, June 2007, 663-693. PDF file
    ^ Adam Jones. Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction. Routledge; 2 edition (August 1, 2010). ISBN 0-415-48619-X pp. 136-137
    ^ Naimark, Norman M. Stalin's Genocides (Human Rights and Crimes against Humanity). Princeton University Press, 2010. pp. 133-135. ISBN 0-691-14784-1
    ^ a b Mark B. Tauger, The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933, Slavic Review, Volume 50, Issue 1 (Spring, 1991), 70-89, (PDF)
    ^ a b See also the acrimonious exchange between Tauger and Conquest.
    ^ a b c Stanislav Kulchytsky, Hennadiy Yefimenko. Демографічні наслідки голодомору 1933 р. в Україні. Всесоюзний перепис 1937 р. в Україні: документи та матеріали (Demographic consequence of Holodomor of 1933 in Ukraine. The all-Union census of 1937 in Ukraine), Kiev, Institute of History, 2003. pp.63-72
    ^ Dr. David Marples. ANALYSIS: Debating the undebatable? Ukraine Famine of 1932-1933
    ^ Wheatcroft, S. G. TOWARDS EXPLAINING SOVIET FAMINE OF 1931-3: POLITICAL AND NATURAL FACTORS IN PERSPECTIVE, Food and Foodways, 2004, 12:2, 107 — 136
    ^ Heroes and villains by David R. Marples Budapest: Central European University Press 2007.
    ^ Steven Rosefielde. Red Holocaust. Routledge, 2009. ISBN 0-415-77757-7 pg. 259
    ^ Snyder, Timothy. Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin. Basic Books, 2010. ISBN 0-465-00239-0 p. vii
    ^ Snyder, Timothy. Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin. Basic Books, 2010. ISBN 0-465-00239-0 p. 413
    ^ Raphael Lemkin Papers, The New York Public Library, Manuscripts and Archives Division, Astor, Lenox and Tilden Foundation, Raphael Lemkin ZL-273. Reel 3. Published in L.Y. Luciuk (ed), Holodomor: Reflections on the Great Famine of 1932–1933 in Soviet Ukraine (Kingston: The Kashtan Press, 2008). Available [www.uccla.ca/SOVIET_GENOCIDE_IN_THE_UKRAINE.pdf online]
    ^ Weiss-Wendt, Anton (2005). "Hostage of Politics: Raphael Lemkin on 'Soviet Genocide'". Journal of Genocide Research 7 (4): 551–559: at 555–556. doi:10.1080/14623520500350017.
    ^ "1934" The Ukrainian Weekly (English)
    ^ The Ukraine: A Submerged Nation, published in 1944
    ^ What Is the Ukraine Famine Disaster of 1932-1933? (English)
    ^ a b c d Edvard Radzinsky Stalin: The First In-depth Biography Based on Explosive New Documents from Russia's Secret Archives, Anchor, (1997) ISBN 0-385-47954-9, pages 256-259
    ^ Robert Conquest Reflections on a Ravaged Century (2000) ISBN 0-393-04818-7, p. 96
    ^ a b Richard Pipes Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime, Vintage books, Random House Inc., New York, 1995, ISBN 0-394-50242-6, pages 232-236.
    ^ Famine denial The Ukrainian Weekly, July 14, 2002, No. 28, Vol. LXX
    ^ The Soviet Union dismissed all references to the famine as anti-Soviet propaganda. Denial of the famine declined after the Communist Party lost power and the Soviet empire disintegrated @ Encyclopedia of Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity By Dinah Shelton; Page 1055 ISBN 0-02-865848-5
    ^ After over half a century of denial, in January 1990 the Communist Party of Ukraine adopted a special resolution admitting that the Ukrainian Famine had indeed occurred, cost millions of lives... Century of Genocide: Critical Essays and Eyewitness Accounts - Page 93 ISBN 0-415-94429-5
    ^ Dmytro Horbachov, Fullest Expression of Pure feeling, Welcome to Ukraine, 1998, No 1.
    ^ Andrew Wilson, "The Ukrainians: Unexpected Nation", Yale University Press, 2002, ISBN 0-300-09309-8, p.144
    ^ J. Arch Getty, "The Future Did Not Work", The Atlantic Monthly, Boston: March 2000, Vol. 285, Iss.3, pg.113
    ^ Большинство украинцев считают Голодомор актом геноцида, Korrespondent.net, November 20, 2007
    ^ Subtelny, Orest (1988). Ukraine: A History. Toronto: University of Toronto Press,. ISBN 0-80205-808-6.
    ^ Interfax-Ukraine. "Yanukovych: Famine of 1930s was not genocide against Ukrainians". Kyiv Post. Retrieved 30 April 2010.
    ^ Bradley, Lara. "Ukraine's 'Forced Famine' Officially Recognized. The Sundbury Star. 3 January 1999. URL Accessed 12 October 2006
    ^ Yushchenko, Viktor. Decree No. 868/2006 by President of Ukraine. Regarding the Remembrance Day in 2006 for people who died as a result of Holodomor and political repressions (Ukrainian)
    ^ "Ceremonial events to commemorate Holodomor victims to be held in Kiev for three days." National Radio Company of Ukraine. URL Accessed 25 November 2007
    ^ Commemorative Coins "Holodomor – Genocide of the Ukrainian People". National Bank of Ukraine.URL Accessed 25 June 2008
    ^ Schoolchildren to study in detail about Holodomor and OUN-UPA, UNIAN (June 12, 2009)
    ^ http://www.kyivpost.com/news/nation/detail/66919, Kyiv Post (May 17, 2010)
    ^ "Ukrainian-Canadians mark famine's 75 anniversasry". CTV.ca. Retrieved 2008-11-23.
    ^ The Canadian Press. "Ontario MPP gets Ukrainian knighthood for bill honouring victims of famine". Winnipeg Free Press.. Retrieved 21 November 2010.
    ^ "Quebec passes bill recognizing Holodomor as a genocide". Canadian Business. Retrieved 2 June 2010.
    ^ "Ukrainian Genocide Memorial Groundbreaking Ceremony in Washington, D.C.". Renaissance Research. Retrieved 2008-12-02.
    ^ Remembrance of Holodomor in Ukraine will help prevent such tragedy in future, says Obama, Interfax-Ukraine (November 14, 2009)
    ^ Statement by the President on the Ukrainian Holodomor Remembrance Day, whitehouse.gov (November 13, 2009)
    ^ Statement by the NSC Spokesman Mike Hammer on Ukraine's Holodomor Remembrance Day
    ^ http://enewschannels.com/2008/06/06/enc3223_160145.php International Holodomor Remembrance Torch in Baltimore Commemorates Ukrainian Genocide

    Now GTFO of here.
  11. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Split thread from Libya.
  12. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    Have you read any of it? Or is it because there are a lot of books on the subject, that you think the subject is evil?

    There are a lot of books on denial of holocaust, should I list them and it would prove to you that Holocaust is a lie? Or do you weigh the importance of books by their numbers? If there are more books about Holocaust denial than about Holocaust itself, then there was no Holocaust for you?

    You see how you fail now? All those books are worthless if they're not basing themselves on archives, which are the only acceptable source of information.

    Historians can't write "i consider they killed 10 billion of people" by sitting on their asses in Canada. They have to open the archives and analyze. That's how history works.
    And history is only presented by historians. Half of your sources are Tymoshenko and politicians who have no place in history, no degree, no knowledge. They use and manipulate historical facts or misconceptions to advance their political agenda. And to use those "quotes" from those people is to be naive, infantile and ultimately ignorant.

    Then you cite Davies and Wheatcroft without knowing their position on the subject. They, among other historians, wrote that there were no millions of dead about repressions and wrote that Holodomor wasn't an intentional famine.

    You need to study the subject before talking about it. Your hatred of Stalin is fanatical and confuses you a lot.
  13. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    Do you even know who first started these lies about Stalin? I bet you'll have no idea.

    It's the person who perpetrated Red Terror and killed tens of thousands without a proper trial.

    But you must know who that was if you know history so well, right?
  14. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    You: If it's overwhelming evidence, then where is it? Come on, counter my numbers, do something. You're stirring frantically like a fish on ice.

    Me: A huge list of resources

    Please, stop it, dude. You are making a spectacle of yourself.
  15. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    You know there are many authors that defend my point of view, but they're all liars because they defend Stalin?

    M. Tauger, "Natural disasters and human actions..."
    First page reads as:


    Do you counter it with your list of authors? You're a wikipedia tool.
  16. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    - Stanislav Kulchitsky "Holodomor-33: Why and how?"
    - Davies, Wheatcroft, «Years of Hunger»
    - Ivnitsky, "Репрессивная политика советской власти в деревне. 1928-1933", p. 88-89
    - S.G. Wheatcroft, R.W. Davies, «The economic transformation of the Soviet Union, 1913-1945», 1994, p. 69
    - Zemskov, "Судьба кулацкой ссылки"
    - R.W. Davies, S.G. Wheatcroft, «Years of Hunger», 2004, pp.107-123, 438
    - M. Tauger, "Natural disasters and human actions..."
    - M. Tauger, "‘Arguing from Errors: On Certain Issues in Davies’ and Wheatcroft’s Analysis of the 1932 Soviet Grain Harvest and the Great Soviet Famine of 1931 –33’", 2006.
    - S.G. Wheatcroft, "On Continuing to Misunderstand Arguments: Response to Mark Tauger", 2007. pdf

    There, I gave a list of authors too, without quotes from politicians though. I could harvest quite some of those, but should I? So... is it bad or is it okay? Did I prove I was right about Holodomor not being an intentional famine by your own logic? Gee, I hope so. Cause I gave a list of authors, you know.

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