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USSR Apologists

Discussion in 'Society and Culture' started by Ivan Drago, Apr 27, 2011.

  1. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    So nice to see a Brighton beach free spirited individual with hatred towards everything communist (bad!) for some reason like "Stalin personally ate 10 billion human babies" or whatever they retained from listening to Western propaganda (good!)

    But let's not discuss the vampire Stalin and KGB flesh eating zombies. Let's discuss this particular video.

    So tell me what is wrong with it? A single point that wasn't true? I guess you'll be tempted to say "EVERYTHING! CAUSE THEY'RE GODDAMN COMMIES!" and then run away like a little girl, unable to participate at conversation and provide logical arguments.

    So a few bonus questions for you, IN CASE you decide to participate at this discussion.

    1- Did you know that USA organized the Egyptian revolution? Check wikileaks.
    2- Did you know that USA organized the Georgian revolution? Soros openly admitted participating in it, he likes to brag about his accomplishments.
    3- Did you know that Zbigniew Brzezinski formulated his approach to USSR and Russia a long time ago, and to make it short, it's "Russia shouldn't exist" and "We destroyed the USSR, and we will destroy Russia as well. You have no chance." src This is coming from a man who created the whole US foreign policy after Kissinger. Knew that?
    4- Did you know that USA was aware that it was Georgia that attacked Ossetia and claimed otherwise anyway, Obama publically asking Russians to "stop attacking georgians"? Fortunately, this was proven by wikileaks.
    5- Are you going to debate that USA organized other color revolutions, other then the ones where they were proven to be involved in?
    6- Did you know that Brzezinski recommends USA destroys Russia by "destabilizing its border regions"? Could it be color revolutions in Ukraine, Yugoslavia, Georgia, Kyrgyzstan? No, probably not. He probably just meant shooting candies at those countries, not organizing revolutions.
    7- USA's embargo on Belarus after their color revolution failed there is another example of USA executing Brzezinski plan, or is it because Lukashenko is the reincarnation of Stalin?
    8- Do you want to argue that what they said, actually didn't happen in Russia? Maybe you'll have an explanation as to where all the money went then? From being top-2 economic power to becoming almost a third world country? From being top-1 at health care and science to becoming a country with a shocking death rate and no science at all? If you don't have a marvelous explanation, read Perestroika by Kurginyan. Or I don't know, provoke me into writing a wall of text pwning you so much you end up shedding tears of blood, that could work, too.

    So swearing at people with certain political views is fine as long as it is in Russian and only offends Soviet sensibilities? How thoughtful and democratic.

    Have a good day.
  2. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    Yes, not to mention different time zones and different accents. USA and Britain are so different, you know. It's irrelevant that their foreign policy has been the same since Kissinger, what matters is that the first like tea while the others prefer coca-cola.
  3. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Stalin was great. Loved his people. FORE! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk47saogI8o&feature=player_detailpage#t=18s

    The premise if entirely wrong because there's very little logic or evidence that US wants to own the world as property. It's reminiscent of another propaganda piece swallowed by the ignorant. The origin was also Russia but before Communist. Perhaps you've heard of it. Something to do with Jews ruling the world and owning every country. Then it was Czarist Russia and Jews. Now it's Soviets fearing the Americans. It's silly and beyond discussion but no one runs away from illogical silly posts and it has nothing to do with Communism or Socialism. . They are a time waster though because arguing against ideology is similar to arguing with someone who is pious.

    Oh I have no doubts there was some nudges and pushes and not just in Egypt but many other countries. It's what countries who are at the top of the hill do in order to retain the dominance in foreign affairs. Soviets have done the same and in more than one place. Of course mistakes are more at our feet than successes but hey, who is arguing that going to Libya was a good idea?

    We go from Middle East, and specifically Libya (in this thread) to Georgia? You shouldn't be going there as Georgia paid dearly for their troubles, and while initially it was a little foggy as to what happened it's clear now that it was more of Georgia taking hubris a little too far and thinking that US will back them in a strife.

    Said back in the seventies? Carter's boy? Carter is considered one of the worst Presidents in the past 100 years. Carter's foreign policy was atrocios and not just when it came to Soviets. But speaking of Soviets, I do recall similar things of US. There was animosity between the two countries, especially when Soviets are blowing out Civilian airplanes with their war planes. 

    Again, Ossetia? This is your proof US wants to own the world?

    Belarus? What next? Some US plan to take over Moldovia? Seriously?

    I honestly don't have any idea what the above is about.

    Top health care? I've lived there, little one, I've experienced this "top 1" health care. It was dismal, atrocious, dirty, corrupt, and it wasn't anywhere near being on top.

    Why?  http://goo.gl/5fS8w Advisor to top Communist in the government between 1989 and 1991. Again, why?

    Monitor muscles, oh how they make me smile.
  4. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member


    This is going to be good...
  5. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    Spaceeba in advance for what promises to be a fun-filled family event!

  6. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    You read Russian, yes? The KGB and MVD archives have been open for 20 years now and you still got no idea, still chewing on Western and Khrushev propaganda? Read it then - http://krasnoe.tv/node/9275
    Also, if you can be bothered reading actual documents, like say 1937 March-February Plenum of the CC CPSU, you'll see who perpetrated the Red Terror in 37-38 and to your surprise you'll find out it wasn't Stalin, it was Stalin who actually stopped it.

    Feel free to troll me on the subject and I'll provide you with so much information you'll drown in it.

    Yes, in fact so little that I actually had to dig so far to find it. I had to read Brzezinski's book where he defines modern USA as a world dominant power through "control by introduction of chaos". Chaos? What is that? Color revolutions? No, I think he just meant that movie with Jason Statham.

    Yeah, Soviets were evil bastards. They invaded Afghanistan. And when they said they went there to counter American color revolution, nobody believed them. NATO voted something like 95 to 5 against Soviet intrusion. Sakharov ran around begging every country in the world to impose sanctions on USSR for their sheer act of aggression.

    Well thanks to Brzezinski's long tongue, we now know that what USSR said was actually true.

    Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?
    Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise. Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

    Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?
    B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

    Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?
    B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

    Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?
    B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire?

    Gee, who gave them that idea? Who trained their troops?

    Ha on both accounts. Try invading somebody's air space without identifying yourself for what was it.. 30 minutes? Try pulling that during a tense conflict with risk of nuclear war. I want to see you try and report here on your success.
    And ha on account of which president it was. Republican or democrat or whatever president, it's just minor differences in internal policies, but it's always the same foreign policy. And it's been more or less the same policy for over 60 years. It had a minor shift, and there was Bush who actually managed to lose friendly relations with the Arab world and with China. Well he was exceptional in that regard. Otherwise the foreign policy is always the same. Look, you might even know America's history better than me. Cite all USA's involvement in other countries' affairs like El Salvador, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc... and write down dates. Do that before talking to me about foreign policies, ok?

    They're all Russia's satellite states. Remember what I wrote earlier or did you not read cause I'm a communist?

    Alright, I'll ask again. After perestroika, where did all the money go? Why is it that a country that offered free education (one of the best), free medicine, pensions, social security, suddenly became so poor as to not be able to sustain the elderly, the health care system, the education system? Where did the money go? Why such a sudden collapse of the whole country, sudden huge increase in mortality rate? In deaths and unborn children we lost 30 million in 20 years. Care to explain?

    Oh yes, very dramatic. Mind you, you're not the only one that lived there. Approximately 180 million people lived there too.

    Guess it was through god's miracle that their life expectancy rate went beyond USA's rate in the 60's. And when the World Health Organization recognized USSR in 1978 as a country with the best emergency medical service IN THE WORLD,... well... that was dismal to all democratic dissidents!

    And it was probably a lie that all Soviets knew how to read and write. Everything was dismal, atrocious, dirty, corrupt. I want to throw up when I see the red flag. Disgusting monsters! Gave people work, free education, free houses, free health care, free social security, pensions, dachas. Goddamn it, I hate communists. It's such a relief that one can live in America now where there's 30 million people who live under the poverty line, where the prices prices on education and health care are outrageous. That's the way to live. Thank god USA doesn't have communism!

    Hah, funny. When you don't like an author, accuse him of being something evil, like fascist, and don't provide any proof. That does the trick.

    And yes, why read? Indeed, why. Reading is for snobs. We, the democratic civilized people, get our information from Fox news.
  7. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    I hope you not only find it entertaining, but also educational. I'm not doing it to convince him of anything, people like him are rarely convinced of things they disagree with. They can't detach themselves from stereotypes they've been infused with when they were around 14-16 years old. They simply can't reexamine issues with an open mind, it's all about emotions for them.

    But I hope some of you may find this educational, it's the only reason I wrote all this anyway.
  8. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    God, where to begin. Why do you have such a hard-on for someone who was never taken seriously here? Is it because it furthers your propaganda? Seriously? Enough with the Brzezinski. The guy was a lube like the President he served. This is the same guy that assured the Shah that it will be ok, no reason to panic in Tehran.

    So you use more propaganda to prove that Stalin was a good man. Perhaps misunderstood? Perhaps some guy on the corner sold him a little puppy that ate his own shit and Uncle Joe turned all screwy? Sorry, Ivan, I ain't buying it, and neither is anyone who is serious in discussing foreign affairs.

    There's no need for me to troll -- I do not think it means what you think it means. There's a saying here in the US, give someone a rope and they will hang themselves. I don't need to troll or go out of my way here at all.

    More rants? DO you have a point or do you like to read what you write? Sakharov? Where is this all coming from? NATO? Yah, NATO was also against invasion of Iraq so much that 95% of their troops were American soldiers. Again, what's your point? Type clearly and logically and we will stop wasting each other's time.

    Only a Soviet apologist would even try to defend that one act. But here we are. Ha indeed.

    Spunky, why did Soviet Union deny they shot it down initially? If it was sure in its actions, why pull a "Chernobyl"? "Huh? What radiation? We don't know what you are talking about, Sweden!" But hey, when they did admit it, you know what they said? They said the plan was on a spy mission? Nothing of your hindsight argument, this is coming straight from Soviet's archives. Perhaps you don't read Russian? Or just read what's convenient? But wait, there's more, because Soviets suppressed evidence that was being looked in to by the International Civil Aviation Organization, "Nope, no flight data recorders here, ICAO!" Yeah, too bad we got those data recorders EIGHT years after the collapse of SU. What else are you hiding? Ohhhh plenty, comrade, plenty.

    Educate yourself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 read the references. Get out of your comfort zone that's padded with brainwashing and propaganda.

    See, it's statements like this that make me realize you are only here to wipe Andrey's ass because he couldn't handle it. It's funny how you logged in and went straight for a thread that had him running with his tail between his legs. Unfortunately, he brought in a lightweight -- apologies to any lightweights in advance. Bush lost relations with Arab world? Bush was mostly hands off and the relationships were always sour, even with Clinton on the lawn shaking Arafat's hand. As for losing friendly relations with China? Wowza. I guess they trade with their enemies the most and buy their bonds! I want to be their enemy!

    Andrey, send in someone who is less emotional so he can make more sense please?

    News to me? You are a Communist? Thanks for the free admission, I care not if you are a necrophiliac as long as your debate has logic and intelligence. Both wanting in this debate though.

    It's not hard, actually.

    Soviet Union was not a successful model. I don't think it's even possible with a country that vast to have Communism or even Socialism. Socialism works in smaller, nationalistic, and cultural countries. Soviet Union just had nationalism and lacked everything else. So the perception was that Soviet Union spiraled and lost money overnight was just that, a perception. It was never a working model, it dried it's people from labor and life and it became much more evident when it was totally gone. People looted much, of course, but that's the culture. Pod stolom (under the table) favoritism goes a long way in a corrupt society. I am actually surprised you've even asked this plain question as the answers are pretty clear. Some more reasons:

    • Baby boomers started hitting Russia's retirement age. So your pensions and SS would not be sustained with the populace tilting towards the precipice of bankruptcy.
    • Your health care was shit -- and every Russian who CAN compare it with a Western model (socialized or otherwise) would agree. Not sure why you would list that as a success or that Soviets really invested all that much in to it.
    • Educational system was excellent, but for a model like that, one didn't need a lot of money. It's a big misconception even here in the US that in order to have a superior education system, one must throw money at it.

    Who -- if they went through getting five teeth pulled in one sitting, no painkillers (one of many examples of this awesome health care system) -- would probably say the same thing.

    No one believed Russia's official numbers, my friend. WHO wanted to, some other international organizations did as well, but you and I both know that if your life was on the line using those statistics, you would opt out in a heart beat. Just don't pretend that the numbers were anything to being gathered fairly, and certainly listed even-handily.

    Now now, let's not exaggerate my position. I've stated that Russian sciences and education were excellent, and no one said anything perfect about America. Look around the forum, there's more criticism 100:1 than praise on our country that's limping along and is in deep trouble from many facets. I don't believe that the problem is with "isms" in this case. Soviet's problem was more of corruption than Communism, if you will. But the model Soviets had was definitely inviting to commit fraud.

    See, the problem with you and your lapdog, Andrey, is that you believe my criticism of Soviets is criticism of the people, primarily. That's nonsense. I am a compassainate fellow who believes the people of former Soviet Union deserve MUCH better than the pile of shit dealt to them by the lovely government. That's not to say that there's no little shits in the civilian ranks but that's found in every country.

    Fascist? No, he was a Communist, a very loyal one and one that had his own agendas. Too much self interest there for me to take anything he had on the table seriously. I don't know whether he was evil though, I don't have enough information as we have on someone like Stalin, for example.
  9. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    And you call ME a conspiracy theorist? That's brilliant! Look at this:

    - I provide you evidence that Stalin didn't kill millions, you can find sources and historians in my link.
    --- Your response: "it's a lie!"

    - I provide you evidence that USSR's health care was one of the best.
    --- Your response: "no, you're a liar! they fabricated numbers!"

    Then you go into the offensive...

    - You say USSR was a nationalist state. Are you completely mad? USSR had more than 20 different nations in it, all being equally sponsored by the state. If it wasn't for USSR, Tajikistan main transport would still be donkeys and Armenians wouldn't have electricity. The slogan was always "the friendship of nations".

    - You say baby boomers (which were born after 1945) hit the USSR's economy in the 1980s... Are you sure you know how to count alright?

    - You admit USSR had one of the best education systems, but you don't think it's an accomplishment, because according to you anyone can do that and it doesn't require money. So what does it require and why did that suddenly explode after perestroika? Because obviously they could go on without the money, but they didn't. But it's not the money. You're a genius, explain why the education went down with everything else then.

    - Soviet Union "was not a successful model"? Bwahahaha. How about that. In 1917 the communists inherit an agricultural state, a huge farm. In just 24 years they manage to raise life expectancy from 22 to 60, eradicate illiteracy (which was around 50% back then), build what is now called a "Russian miracle" - that is industrialize the country, achieve the increase in GDP 40-fold in 70 years, defeat the Nazi Germany which was backed by the industry of the whole Europe, obtain more Fields and Nobel prizes than any other country, push the limits of science, and what not.
    On a human level, everyone had an apartment, a dacha, a car, a TV, and a bonus package of health care+education+pension. All you had to do was work 30 hours/week.
    That's what happens when the Gini index is low and the GDP is high. It's simple math, if the country produces a lot and all the money is redistributed equally, everyone wins because there is enough for everyone. That's why various forms of socialism are implemented all across Europe.

    - After being exposed to numerous arguments and being unable to respond, you say something like I'm Andrey's friend or something. I don't even know the guy, nor what this is supposed to mean. Did you undermine my arguments by associating me with this Andrey? I hope for your sake, otherwise you risk looking like an evasive schmuck.

    - You can't be bothered to explain your point, giving me links to wikipedia, considering it the ultimate source of truth. Are you okay in your head at all?
    Here's an example I found not so long about about wikipedia's objectivity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk
    Now if you check the army strength and casualties. Compare those numbers in English, Russian, German, French, Spanish, Polish. You'll be amazed. The numbers go up and down by millions, depending on the language. I don't trust wikipedia because it's full of people like you who edit it without having any knowledge on the subject.

    Where is this even coming from? Your wet dreams? I got my teeth pulled and my tonsils removed in USSR, both times with anesthesia. For free. Now if you live in Moscow you have to pay 150 bucks for a tooth removal and your pensions is 150 bucks/month if you're too old to work. Is this your idea of progress?

    First of all, everybody had to be communist to be part of the political elite. Kurginyan isn't in KPRF now, so what makes you say he's a communist?
    Second, what makes you say he was loyal? Loyal to what? He opposed Gorbachev, then Gaidar and Chubais. I'd say he's loyal to the interests of USSR.

    I don't suppose even those arguments can help you, you're beyond help. Any author I'm going to cite, you're gonna hate him anyway.

    Frankly I don't know if I answered to everything. I don't usually debate with brainwashed people, they are beyond help. Why you hate USSR is your personal psychological problem, work it out with a shrink. I don't care to know.
    Fortunately, your kind is a minority in Russia. People call them либерасты... People still remember how life was in USSR and can compare to what life is today. More and more vote for communists, it's a distinct possibility that they might win the 2019 election.

    About Chernobyl - read this, you'll like it http://lev-sharansky2.livejournal.com/56054.html
    Maybe this too http://8tv.ru/?id=12&hotnews=282
  10. Stiofan

    Stiofan Master Po

    So Ethics, explain the term "Stockholm Syndrome" so we can all better understand Ivan and his ramblings.
  11. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    The reason you think it's ramblings is because Russians don't speak English. The ones that left and went to USA, they might speak English, but they went away for a reason, so they hate USSR.

    Also there was a very long cold war and as you may have noticed, USA has a very powerful brainwashing machine through media and manipulation of historical facts.

    Truth be told, my family and everyone I knew - everyone was pretty happy in USSR. Never had problems with money, went to black sea every summer for a month, and it was the same for everyone I knew at school and at university, etc. So how do you figure I was held hostage and by what?

    I can offer impartial perspective on USSR because I never really left like they did, but I speak English. I lived in Belgium for 10 years at some point. Then went back to Russia to find it in a very horrible state. Average salary in Russia is 6000 rubles (200 usd), and a 1 room apartment costs 8000 rubles/month. My very old grandmother has a pension in Saint-Petersbourg - 5000 rubles. She pays 2500 for electricity and water and spends 2500 on food (90 bucks). I don't know the US prices, but you're gonna eat total shit to survive on 90 bucks/month. And she's old, so she has some illnesses, but the medicine isn't free now. I mean they left the free medicine, but it's now in a state where it's almost more effective to use homeopathic.
    People remember things were very differently, but now it's almost like in films about a dystopian future.

    Thirty percent of the population live below the poverty line. Another thirty live just above it. So basically we've got 60% of the population being either completely poor, or just very-very poor. The next thirty percent are lower and somewhat middle class. And ten percent are very rich, most of them are either thieves or corrupt state employees.
    Those 60% will never be able to afford any form of education, medicine, anything. Not for themselves, not for their children. If they fall sick, they gotta continue going to work or they'll die of hunger.

    The buildings are getting older and older. They can't afford maintenance or repairs. See where it's gonna lead in another 10 years?

    A typical example.

    It reads "a president passed by this side of the building". Which is probably true. They repaired this facade to show it in news or something, but it's an exception. Most of the buildings where this picture is taken from is like the left side of that building.

    During USSR, they used to build hundreds of huge factories per year. For the last 20 years, they built none and thousands got abandoned. We lost 30 million people through deaths and unborn children, thousands of population aggregates abandoned and gone.
    Russia is in terminal stage. It's just dying.
  12. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    Here's about corruption in Russia. Can you embed youtube videos here?
    Watch it, it's very well made.
  13. mikeky

    mikeky Member

    If everyone was so happy under the old system, and it worked so well, then why did it fall apart? It seems there would have been an uprising to keep the USSR intact, rather than the other way around.
  14. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    That's a logical question. But it wasn't people who destroyed USSR, it was the political elite.

    There was a national referendum in 1991. The question that was asked was "Do you consider necessary the preservation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as a renewed federation of equal sovereign republics in which the rights and freedom of an individual of any nationality will be fully guaranteed?"

    At least 70% voted YES. So people WANTED the Soviet Union to continue existing. The political elite with Eltsin at its head didn't want USSR, so they chose to ignore the results. For various reasons, which I can explain, but it's not important now. They betrayed their people and that's the point.

    You can read about it here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_referendum,_1991

    Not only that, they replaced socialism with capitalism without asking anybody's opinion at all. Because they were completely incompetent, by performing this transition, they destroyed the economy.

    They also caused at least 8 civil wars in ex-USSR republics, in which thousands have died. Even in Russia, male life expectancy dropped from 70 to 50 in a matter of two years.

    Yeltsin usurped the power and performed all his mad reforms. He then brought to power Putin and left the scene. Putin brought to power Medvedev. We still can't rid ourselves of this dictatorship that's killing us. They're manipulating the elections and Russia is dying.
  15. mikeky

    mikeky Member

    Perhaps the former USSR states should have an Arab-like uprising. NATO could provide air cover, at least in those states with oil.
  16. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Let me clarify statements that you attribute to me. So you get a better understanding what I mean and where I am coming from.

    Not really, you've provided one book in your evidence that would demand much more. I am sure you can provide more but that's not the point. There has been thousands of researched books from both sides of the ocean and beyond, Ivan. You can't simply come in and say, "it's not true, Stalin didn't kill millions, where you have pretty damning evidence of the forced starvation of the Ukrainians. Count is already 3 million there (I think it's more but whatever).

    Official Soviet numbers were always suspect due to the structure of the government, the fear of repercussions on negativity -- and incompetence. I've seen it first hand, I've experienced it first hand. It was pretty bad.

    USSR was as nationalistic as they come. It was an ideology that was put up against Capitalism and the rest of the Western structure. They needed to be nationalistic. I don't think Nationalism is 100% bad either, it's just another 'ism' and some societies need it more than others. The Pravda and entire press propaganda, the national television, it had nationalistic tones. I don't know if you grew up during Soviet times but I did and it was very evident. I was proud to be a Soviet.

    As for baby boomers hitting Soviet economy in the '80s, that's my point, it's where the downward trend became unsustainable, leading to the collapse of the empire.

    Why is education system superior and does not require as much money as Americans (and you) think? It's the culture. We had "dnevniki" that were our personal school diaries. Teachers would write good and bad, had to be "approved" (signed) by parent daily. Education in society was a priority. You didn't go anywhere without it and not only did the parents push their kids but the entire society did. When the collapse of SU came, the priorities went out the window. I would see teenaged boys, not more than 12, on see-saws with each a bottle of vodka in their hands during school days. Too many thought that embracing Capitalism was the panacea and that all troubles will be gone. It was a horrible mistake.

    I am not saying money is totally unimportant, I just don't think it's as important as people make it out to be - and more of that here than there, by the way.

    Ivan, no exact vital statistics for Russia are available for the period before WW II. Let me repeat, no exact VITAL stats for Soviet Union were available. We do have this though and it's more than revealing that even during the 20's and 30's you had one year where you had more deaths than births-- non-war year. Other years are wanting to be used as a good model for a civilization:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia#cite_ref-20 Of course, after 1991, it was even worse but they were not exactly what you think they were before that.

    As for "everyone had an apartment, a dacha, a car, a TV"? That's just bullshit, and you know it. How can you propagate that with a straight face? Do you not know that this causes more harm for your argument than what you are trying to accomplish? Neither I, nor ANYone I knew, had a Dacha or a friggin car. TV? Black and white as Color was out of our reach. Apartment was shared with my great grandmother for the lack of housing. But I must have been dreaming. And everything was so dreamy in USSR that everyone loved it and whoever says otherwise is a liar, a fake, a traitor.

    Says the guy that diverts decades of research and dives in to believe everything Wikileaks says as fact or some former communist government official on Stalin? Wikipedia are backed by sources, check the bottom of each entry. But you knew that, after all, you've used it for something you wanted to prove to Mikeky? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_referendum,_1991). Let me just say that while those numbers are correct, it's missing one variable on collection of those statistics. Can anyone tell me what that variable is? ;)

    This is the mistake many Moscovites make. Soviet Union was not just Moscow and what I went through wasn't a dream or a fantasy. I wish it was. Moscovites had it made, from what I know, but most other cities, even big ones in SU, were not. It sounds like you were very privileged in USSR which explains your nationalism and your staunch defense of Stalin and the state. Dacha? Really?

    After the Bolshevik revolution of 1917, most dachas were nationalized. Some were converted into vacation homes for the working class, while others, usually of better quality, were distributed among the prominent functionaries of the Communist Party and the newly emerged cultural and scientific elite

    So please. Ne pizdi zdes.

    Good luck. What can I tell you. It's your country, do whatever you feel is the best for it. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Just don't try to convince others, people who have lived there, experienced it, read all about it from every angle possible (because we wanted to believe that it WAS good) that it was/is an Utopia. 

    MODS: can someone who has the time split this thread from Libya as these debates are very different from the initial topic? Thanks.
  17. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    Easy. That statistics are only as good as the person submitting them.
  18. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    Very well noticed. The situation is starting to boil right now. There are all signs of a color revolution, the same movements with a short name like "ENOUGH!", some lame movements to cover all basis (one for liberals, one for fascists, one for Putin haters, one against the corruption, etc). They recently organized some lame marches through Moscow to see how many people they have.

    As you may have noticed, the color revolutions are triggered right after elections. It's expected that Putin will win and then it will all start.
    If I am correct and if Putin doesn't do anything to paralyze them preemptively, this will all result in Perestroika-2. This will be the final blow, after which the country will cease to exist if they are successful in ceasing the power.

    All it comes down to now is - will they be able to buy the support of our military? That's what it always comes down to.
  19. Arc

    Arc Full Member


    Goodbye e Van' Draga.
  20. Ivan Drago

    Ivan Drago Banned forum Troll

    Yes I can, see me do it.

    So how many books have you read about Holodomor to talk about it so baldly? None, but you still think it's your right to talk without knowledge? Verrrry democratic.

    Do you think the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe didn't read anything? They actually have, because they refused to recognize Holodomor as genocide, the decision was made with 81 to 4 votes. Imagine that huh.

    And since Ushenko left the political arena, nobody believes in this shit in Ukraine either if you care to actually google the opinion of the head of the Ukrainian Institute of National Remembrance.

    Some people died, who's fault it was can be argued and it still is argued by historians. You see, your point of view is not the only one that exists. Shocking, isn't it? Spoiled kids find this out very late in life, apparently.

    For example, explain how it is Stalin's fault that there was a drought, and not just in Ukraine, but also in Moldavia and Kazakhstan?
    Also, how is it Stalin's fault that Ukrainians, thinking that they will be forced into collectivization, ate their bulls? In Ukraine, the earth is rough and has to be plowed with bulls, not horses. Now google the number of bulls in Ukraine in 31 and 32, and tell me how do you explain Stalin's fault in the fact that they made salo out of them? I'm curious. Did Stalin ate their livestock?

    Also, the number 3 million or 10 million (whichever western historian you like most) takes into account people who were relocated, as well as people who just died of old age. Western historians like to add those numbers into the "deceased" for propaganda. The actual numbers are much less dramatic.
    In Zemskov where the hunger was the most present, according to the opened archives, in 1932 some 782 thousands were born and 668 thousands died. The next year 359 thousands were born and 309 thousands died.
    Thus, the most realistic number of total victims of the hunger is around 1.5 million. As a comparison, 4 millions died in Tsarist Russia in 1891-1893.

    Also, if it wasn't intentional, then how do you figure it's Stalin's fault at all? Nobody's claiming USA made a genocide on their own people when 5 millions died during the Big Depression.

    Alrighty, my liberal friend?

    What? Do you know that they opened the Katyn archives despite the fact that it presents USSR in a very bad light? Plus, all archives, when suspected of forgery, are checked by competent historians. What you're saying doesn't make sense, and your own personal experience with punitive psychiatry is your own personal issue.

    Oh god. Just google nationalism, stop embarrassing yourself.

    Your quote:
    As for baby boomers hitting Soviet economy in the '80s, that's my point, it's where the downward trend became unsustainable, leading to the collapse of the empire.

    You realize baby boomers can only hit the economy by going on pension. Born in 45-50, and on pension in the 80s? You could use a calculator, I think.

    Your quote:
    It's the culture. We had "dnevniki" that were our personal school diaries. Teachers would write good and bad, had to be "approved" (signed) by parent daily. Education in society was a priority.

    Yeah, that makes sense. Oh wait, it doesn't, because we still have "dnevniki" and the same culture, but not the same education. Our newly formed specialists are among the worst in the world. Congratulations on having no logic.

    And as for kids drinking Jaguar, everybody I knew had a drinking experience, me included, and it was in USSR. Oooooh, that's why I'm such a stupid communist, right???

    Besides, I wasn't talking about school, but about universities. It's the universities that make specialists, which we don't even have. We ordered our software in India for the new Sukhoi PAK FA, unable to do it ourselves! This fighter the last project that started in USSR. Others have been abandoned, the new tank never got finished, we are unable to build atomic icebreaker. Go dnevniki!

    I'd want you to be American minister of education. That'd help Russia in the long run A LOT.

    How convenient, first you say there are no exact numbers, then you shove a number in my face that's pre-ww2 and it's a bad number. I had to call a Sherlock Holmes to find this inconsistency.

    Well we've got these numbers that are EXACT. http://wsf1917.livejournal.com/148103.html

    Did your parents work? Did your parents need a car? How large was the city you lived in? What was the salary of your parents? What was the price of bread? The price of a car. The price of a TV.

    You know if your father used to lose his money in cards and your mother wasn't working and was an alcoholic, for example, you don't get to complain about the regime. I want crude numbers or it didn't happen.

    I have numbers, you know. For many professions. While you have some "i was an beaten up kid with no TV" memories and you blame Stalin. Here's my numbers. Indulge yourself in reading please.

    Wow. What else you're gonna tell me? That George Bush had a high IQ?

    I really hate to explain this to you. Sources can be biased. There, I said it.

    If wikipedia was a reliable tool, what I described about the article on the Battle of Kursk wouldn't have happened. But it did, and it did with a lot of historical events. While refering to the same source, a page in one language would give a number of "700'000 germans against 2 millions of russians", while a page in another language would say "there were 2 million germans against 700'000 russians". So you have to research deeper than wikipedia if you want to know what really happened.

    What, the attendance percentage? 80% participated.

    Or you mean something like "the percentage of people tortured by Stalin to answer YES"? The USSR got dissolved despite the fact that people wanted to live in USSR. It's a fact that you can't deny.

    I refer you to statistical studies of how many people own a summer house in Russia http://www.rodgaz.ru/index.php?action=News&tek=19
    It's revealed that at least 34% do. Most dachas aren't newly built, they're the inheritance of the USSR era.
    So, all in all, one third of a population still has a dacha since USSR. So in USSR 1/3 of the population had a SUMMER HOUSE. Can you say the same about Americans for example?
    Also, there were these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Pioneer_camp
    I give you the link to show you children's faces. See how they smile. It's because there are soldiers aiming their rifles at them ordering them to smile. Simple.

    I remember my time at the camp as one of the best summers I ever had. And it was free and accessible to all children if their parents worked.

    How democratic. Mind your own business, I'll do and say whatever the hell I want.


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