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Turkey Does Not Belong In the EU...

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by Sierra Mike, Nov 10, 2002.

  1. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    ...says former French President and EU elder statesman Valery Giscard d'Estaing.

    I guess this is a little bit of that hate Ken likes to speak about.

    Read all about it at Vile, Evil (and non-Christian!) Turkey!

    SM
     
  2. ditch

    ditch Downunder Member

    Well that's the French being themselves Steve. They have a bit of a reputation for opening of la mouth and putting la foot in it. I dont think they really give a le fuck who they offend though.
     
  3. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    First they piss off the Americans, well, hell any chance they get (I WAS about to cite examples starting with Lybia but there were too many after that).

    Then, recently, they called Israel that shitty little country. And now, since they are so pro-Islam and against Zionism, they want to show the world their hypocrisy with Turkey.

    Yes, Turkey elected a more Islamic government. The PEOPLE elected it, however, and not solely so they can go through a 1979 Iran Revolution. Turkey deserves to be in the EU, but as I've stated before regarding this asinine decision not to allow Turkey, Europeans are quick to jump on everyone else outside of their realm, but when it comes to look in the mirror they only see what they want to see.

    September 11th was more than an attack by terrorists for me, it really showed me what European governments are made out of.
     
  4. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Valery Giscard d'Estaing, 76. Who'd have thunk it? Frogs actually grow a pair when they get old. Given the recent election tumult in Turkey, I'd have thought no different. The EU was already set to deny Turkey entry...Camille Adaturk notwithstanding. Odd that it wasn't a German that did this as Germany's endemic population is suffering the most from the influx of Turks.

    Europe has a plethora of illegal immigration problems, with muslims from muslim states being the biggest. The U.S. has its share by Catholics from hispanic states. Australia and Canada are in the same position.

    At issue here is both legal and illegal immigration. Spain has closed and enforced its borders...I expect the rest of Europe to follow suit.

    People don't migrate for the hell of it, they migrate to follow resources. The only way you close off human migration is to close off the resources, or the incentive to migrate. It is in the best interest of the EU to not allow free migration from the middle east. Turkey is a great way...or a gateway for Islamics to migrate freely to the EU.

    Why in the hell should the EU allow its culture to be supplanted by a diaspora of muslims fleeing tyranny in its own borders? Europe fought wars to throw off tyranny...why should they allow fugitives fleeing it? The answer is that those attempting to flee be forced to either live under that yoke or discard it. The U.S. fought to free itself, Europe did the same. If we keep taking in cowards that are not willing to fight on the grounds of their own homeland for the same freedoms, then we ruin our own culture and free it up for hijacking by other cultures that have jack shit to do with its premise, but have everything to do with its demise.
     
  5. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    Le funny!

    SM
     
  6. Sunriser13

    Sunriser13 Knee Deep in Paradise

    "Turkey Does Not Belong In the EU... "

    - Hmmm, and just before Thanksgiving, too. I mean, just exactly what is the rest of the world supposed to do with all those turkeys?? Does the entire EU wish to ban turkey? The rest of us can only use so many, as we'll be so sick of turkey sandwiches and turkey salad by Christmas that we won't know what to do!! Does this extend to all poultry?? What about chicken and duck?

    Huh? What's that you say? You mean the country Turkey?

    Oh -- Never mind...
     
  7. jamming

    jamming Banned

    If Turkey's eat Turkeys is that Cannibalism?
     
  8. John R. Beanham

    John R. Beanham Typical Aussie Male

    If Turkey is ever admitted to the EU, then she will become a back door to mass migration from all the Muslim countries of the world, to Europe.

    Not only will her own population migrate west but all that initially migrate to Turkey will rapidly follow.

    This WILL cause major social disruption in Europe as it has begun to do already.

    John.
     
  9. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Gentlemen.

    The reason EU gave for not admitting Turkey in to it's eliticism is not for immigration purposes but for Turkey's "human rights record." Which is a blanket charge with very little integrity.
     
  10. claire

    claire Registered User

    turkey

    Europeans politics are mostly reluctant to see Turkey
    join the EU of course for the human rights issue but
    surely more because the european population is afraid
    of a massive coming of islamic people who don't share
    the same values as the majority of europeans .
    In my tiny country we have unfortunately a lot of problems with some islamics activists who are asking for
    them more rights(and of course no duty) than a foreigner has in any of these countries. I must admit
    that the turkish population in Belgium in her vast
    majority does not create problems but is unfortunately
    not so well integrated(they mostly stick with Turks and
    don' t have many contacts with Belgians).The problem
    is with others arabs inhabitants(from Algeria,Marocco etc) but Europeans instinctively extend their(justified) fears of islamic extremists to Turkey.But as someone already pointed out all the populations that have already gone to Turkey will fast enter Europe and that's what most Europeans refuse fearing for their culture and way of life.
     
  11. Leopoldo Niilus

    Leopoldo Niilus Registered User

    Geopolitics & ethics

    Whether Turkey could or should join the European Union is a rather complicated geopolitical issue.

    That Turkey joining the EU seems to be in the interest of the U.S.A. is one thing. And there are very obvious POLITICAL reasons for it.

    Whether it is in the interest of Europe is another.

    The whole issue, however,certainly should not be reduced to a moralistic debate or quibble, to pointing of fingers - on who is nicer or more open than the other. And so on, and so forth.

    More on the complexity, see:

    http://www.iht.com/articles/79684.html

    If there be any fight over this, do it without your servant. I'll be absent as of tomorrow and till Monday 16. Not in Turkey. Only in Germany. :)

    Leopoldo
     
  12. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    I love how you skirt the topic, Leopoldo. Shaking your finger on the moralists but yet don't offer what the real reason Turkey is being shunned from EU.

    Your infusion of the US is noted but not reacted to.
     
  13. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Re: turkey

    Well said, Claire. Of course many Europeans would raise their noses at that statement and tell the rest of us "arrogant" people that that is not true, they love Muslims. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Leopoldo Niilus

    Leopoldo Niilus Registered User

    And I, Leon, love how you skirted Pfaff's article. If you didn't read it, you should.

    That piece gives you a series of reasons for admitting or not admitting Turkey to the EU, with possible consequences in one case or the other. The jury still being out. Pfaff, aware that the issue is complicated, does not divide the matter between those in white hats and those in black ones. There is no one "real reason." Thus is most of reality - I can't help it.

    And what, pray, is an "infusion of the US?"
     
  15. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    Leopoldo,

    I think the only thing Pfaff's article was able to clearly convey is that the Europeans do not yet have a clear idea of what the EU is, will, and should be. Backing up his thesis as to why Turkey should not be admitted to the EU with such claims as the following--

    --is, with all due respect, nothing more than protectionist, isolationist tripe which flies in the face of what the EU has, to my small mind, purported to stand for at this point in time. It is an attempt at obfuscation, both on the part of Giscard, and on the part of the author for attempting to further this discord.

    SM
     
  16. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member



    No there isn't but there ARE major reasons and minor reasons.


    I am no fan of IHT nor their writing, it's like reading dumbed down version of NYTimes. I can tolerate the leftist NYT but I lost a lot of respect to IHT a while back.

    Infusion of US in a topic that has very little to do with US.
     
  17. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    And people take IHT seriously? Pleaase.
     
  18. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    Hey, if someone cites it as a source, then it can almost certainly be held up for subjective and/or objective review. The same thing happened when I posted stuff from Parameters some time ago, so big deal. I rarely if ever take IHT seriously; if nothing else, they're just not very skilled at hiding an agenda. :haha:

    SM
     
  19. Leopoldo Niilus

    Leopoldo Niilus Registered User

    Leon,

    OK, let's get down to brass tacks and spell out everything, step by step and most carefully.

    If you only react to a SOURCE of an information and are not even willing to consider the arguments you are being offered, that is your privilege. Does not exactly foster a reasoned debate, but we can live with that.

    Infusion of the U.S. Introducing matters non germane to the issue.

    Here I really have to beg your pardon. United States is greatly relevant to the inclusion or non-inclusion of Turkey into the European Union. In fact, it has been constantly pressing for such inclusion. To an extent that one does not need to quote specific sources, kosher or not.

    The U.S.A. of course has an interest - and most legitimate from its point of view - that Turkey be included in the EU. To give you just the most basic and simplistic reasons:

    1. It is a favor to Turkey for being, up to now, a most steadfast NATO ally, and a possible one in the case of a war against Iraq.

    2. Turkeys inclusion into the EU might well diminish the cohesion of Europe; introduce a big and trusted American ally into Europe, thus making Europe less competitive in regard to the U.S.A., diminishing its potential to collectively take anti-American positions.

    Europe might also have reasons to include Turkey, but they certainly would be different from those of the U.S.A.

    2b) To some extent the U.S.A. has already been able, mutatis mutandi, to achieve some of the goals mentioned under 2.

    The big bang of NATO and the EU Union immediate new candidate states, introduce into Europe - directly or through NATO - new elements (countries) which for historical and other reasons rely, for their survival, basically on the U.S.A. rather than the European big powers. Mind you, Estonia, is among such new elements. All this also diminishes Europe'a potential collectively to take anti-American stances.

    All of which I have said is not meant to be a criticism against the U.S.A. It just is trying to look out for its own interests. And so it should.

    And Europe will have to see to, that is defends its own perceived interests in the best possible manner.

    What bothers me is a moralizing simplification of these fairly complicated matters, such as claiming from the U.S.A. that Europe is not willing to admit Turkey because it is anti-Islamic, more racist than America and what not. And Europe arguing that America is just being arrogant and should keep its nose out of European matters.

    Or to simplify it even more: American policies are moral. Those who are against them are immoral.

    Or to come back to Salvador de Madariagas quote (which I already have mentioned elsewhere in this forum):

    The Monroe Doctrine is not a doctrine but, in actual fact two dogmas:

    a) the dogma of the virgin birth of Americas foreing policy.

    b) the dogma of the infallibility of the president of the U.S.A."


    I hope you see what I mean. No offense meant to the U.S.A. It is just doing what it should to.

    I only plead that we cut through the moralistic smoke and mirrors. On both sides. On all sides. And do some political analysis.

    Yours truly

    Leopoldo
     
  20. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Turkey has been a NATO member prior to September 11th and any talk of terrorism. They have been asking to get in to EU since it's admittance to NATO.

    TO say that Americans are saying Europe is more racist more than America for not allowing Turkey in is something that you said, not Americans. Americans only mention how arrogant of Europe to raise their noses at American reaction to Muslims IN America and yet do the same thing to the Muslims via rejection of Turkey. Other than that, Americans could give a flying squirrel.

    But I love how Europeans always look for the ulterior motives of America, no matter how distant the effects would be to US. The decision to include Turkey in to EU will NOT affect whether US uses Turkey's bases for attack (if any) on Iraq. Sure, the US can say, "Hey, come on EU, can you let in Turkey? I mean, they have been asking for an awful long time and there's really very little you can reject them on." If that's what you call US getting involved in EU affairs, I am afraid that that is sort of bs.

    The issue, Leopoldo, no matter how IHT or other European press (who love nothing but to point fingers across the ocean instead of looking at internal problems), paints this, is the issue between EU and Turkey and no one else.

    On the sidelines, we can comment at what is happening just as much as the rest of the world comments on everything America does.

    Here's a direct political question, Leopoldo, what is the REAL reason EU is not allowing Turkey in for? Or MAJOR reason.
     

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