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Tired of the Bashers

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by ShinyTop, Dec 29, 2002.

  1. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    I don't think anybody here is stupid enough to believe that our country never does anything bad. But I will be damned if I don't wonder about those who will believe everything bad about the US is true. Justin has taken the incident with the airport security and determined that the entire government if screwed because Bush is president. -Ken will take obvious lies from Chinese newspapers and say "shouldn't we take a longer look at ourselves?"

    The United States is just like each of us. We try to make the right decision at the right time for the right reasons. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. What I will not do is hit myself on the back with whips and bow down to the 3rd world countries and say "kill my citizens to make up for me being the big guy on the block."

    What we do have is the right to make decisions based more on our own good than that of a Somalia or Nigeria who are making decisions that will wipe out half their population. When they are done killing each other we will be glad to help them up. We don't even have to consider France's opinion unless we have reason to believe it makes sense or will badly affect us if we don't.

    I don't give a rat's ass whether or not the jerk in the turban or straw hat likes me or not. I cannot change his mind by giving billions to his government because it does not get to him and his government is lying to him 90% of the time. I will promise him I am not out to kill him and I will further promise him that if he wants to kill me or kill mine I will go after him. If he does not want his civilians killed as collateral damage give up and/or don't hide behind them. I will protect my own and I will attempt to not kill innocents in the process. But I will go after you.

    If you don't like my culture don't fucking go to my movies or buy my hamburgers. But if you do let your government know they are barking up the wrong tree. Don't buy my music if it is immoral. Hell, I don't buy much of it because it's trash.

    And from now let's quit paying people to hate us. A country's propaganda machine wants to slam America. Fine, we will give our billions to countries who like us or at least don't look the gift horse in the mouth. The food we send only enriches the coffers of the warlords? Kill the warlords with GPS bombs or quit giving the food. Send the food where it will do good.

    You want us to supply medical supplies at no cost. Fine, show me where your money is going. If it is buying more arms to suppress the people or paying for a corporate jet to fly your despot around the world forget about it. If your money is being spent to help your people we will help too.

    And if you don't like my country's policies don't accept the good we do. After all, it is tainted by our faults. Don't sit there in the safety you enjoy because my country defended the free world for the last 50 years. Don't use products from your industry that my country paid for reestablishing. And when you burn my flag in contempt of it please remember we are capable of recognizing friends and enemies. Be very careful which camp we perceive you to be in.

    In other words since you want truth be sure to remember the good we have done. There is no other country that has done so much for so many with so little return. Have we erred? Yup, no doubt. But as you hang our president in effigy or burn the symbols of our country, remember, you are changing the perception in our country of your country. And you would do well to be sure we do not think of you as our enemy. Because we are beginning to see we don't have to support our enemies. And we are beginning to realize that some we considered friends and supported with American lives are supporting our enemies and are no longer worthy of that friendship.
     
  2. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Damn Shiny, that sword/pen can really kick 'em out every now and then. Well Said!
     
  3. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    DAMN, Shiny!!!

    SM
     
  4. ditch

    ditch Downunder Member

    Being criticised and mocked is part of the price you pay for being the big kid on the block. I can certainly understand the frustration and anger there though and a lot of it coming from recipients our your country's aid programs puts salt into the wounds.

    Vent your spleen all you want. Those you have directed it at deserve what you say.
     
  5. cdw

    cdw Ahhhh...the good life.

    Well said!
     
  6. -Ken

    -Ken Guest

    Wow Shiny,

    Now it is a not acceptable to talk about and bring to light the things, which our country might be doing wrong. You admit we make mistakes but we can't voice our concern and protest because it offends you?

    Sorry, that's not how it's supposed to work. If we don't constructively criticize our country, who will? Both houses of Congress? I don't think so, it might get in the way of their next pay raise.

    I've never burned a flag and I am not likely to start but I will tell you what, it does appear to be a protected freedom of speech and until that changes I'm afraid you and I will just have to live with it. Try writing your congressman, they apparently have form letters for just that particular rant.

    I'm not asking you to "hit myself on the back with whips" or "bow down to the 3rd world countries and say "kill my citizens to make up for me being the big guy on the block." I am asking you to get our government to not make the mistakes you admit they sometimes make when we believe they are wrong. I expect you to look at these charges when they are made with a suspicious eye as our government has on occasion made some pretty bad decisions and then covered them up until we looked.

    I also happen to be very proud of the good we do and I will appreciate it if you might allow me to continue to. Because we make mistakes and someone points them out so the mistakes will be stopped or rectified is not a bad anti American thing it is a good thing, it's what makes this country great.

    <small>As said by Shiny,</small>
    "And you would do well to be sure we do not think of you as our enemy. Because we are beginning to see we don't have to support our enemies. And we are beginning to realize that some we considered friends and supported with American lives are supporting our enemies and are no longer worthy of that friendship."

    I find that disturbing, very disturbing. If it is directed at any of our countrymen, I think you are way out of line. I would always hope Americans would never think that way of Americans. Apparently, I as wrong.

    <small>As said by Shiny,</small>
    "Justin has taken the incident ..."
    Justin? Who's Justin?
     
  7. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    He's talking about two-faced little countries like France and South Korea.
     
  8. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    Ken, one thing you should learn about diplomacy, personal and on a national scale.

    Once in a while, occasionally, in spite of the good things you do, when people take you for granted, dog you out, screw with you, steal from you...

    It's a good thing to stand up and tell everyone <B>"KISS MY ASS"</B>.
     
  9. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    Thank you Copzilla, you defended my position accurately and more concisely than I am able.
     
  10. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    Oh, I'm envious of your original post... :)
     
  11. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    Sorry Shiny, I would have ridden to your aid earlier, but I was too busy giving Ken a piece of my mind elsewhere.

    SM
     
  12. Misu

    Misu Hey, I saw that.

    Although I agree with a lot of what you said, Shiny, I think that with our position comes responsibility.

    You know how when you're the oldest child, your actions are always being held up as examples of what is acceptable and not acceptable? Well, being that we're Big Brother in the world, our actions and how they are perceived are extremely important. This is what our foreign policies are all about.

    I think it's healthy to say "KISS MY ASS" and not give a damn what other people in other countries think about us as Americans on an individual level - but on a national level, we must care very much what our image is to other countries. Who cares if the poor people of the world hate us? I care - those are the very same people leaders are trying to appease, to stay in power. If the people want the leaders to blow up NYC with a nuke, you better believe I care about that.

    It's frustrating and it sometimes makes you want to scream and cry and pull your hair out - why doesn't the world like us!! Why do they want to see us dead?! One word, folks - resentment. We're the have's, they're the have-nots. It's not our fault they don't have what we have, but it IS our problem, because they're making it our problem. So what do we do about it? Blow them all up? Is that going to work? Or is that something that's going to bite us in the ass further down the road?

    I wish I knew the answers.
     
  13. Jedi Writer

    Jedi Writer Guest

    Go Shiny, go!
     
  14. bruzzes

    bruzzes Truthslayer

    What I fail to understand, and will probably always fail to understand is why someone cannot state an opinion as it is stated without having to back up that opinion with links to another borrowed opinion. Why does one have to defend that opinion?

    I can understand discussion on the values contained within said opinion but sometimes an opinion is definitive in itself. Often it is my observation that an opinion can be torn and twisted out of context and used to bait the initial stated opinion. That is what I see as happening here. A simple true statement that others dislike America is seen as an attack on the poster rather than the statement itself.

    But of course, no one here is guilty on that score.
    Or if so, it is because both sides relish the battle rather than seek the truth. I have much to learn.
     
  15. Advocat

    Advocat Viral Memes a Speciality Staff Member

    One of the most insightful analysis of Middle Eastern reactions to the US that I've seen, by Brian Lewis, a professor emeritus in Near Eastern studies, Princeton:
    "What Went Wrong"
    http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/01/lewis.htm

    Rough synopsis (copy/pasted from another article):

    The Islamic world is a society with a great sense of history and one that does not think ethnically or territorially, Lewis said.

    "Islam is a religion; West is a compass point," he said.

    After its supremacy in the Middle Ages, Lewis said something went wrong with Islamic society and it began to fall behind the West. It lost external and internal battles, and many Muslims eventually became "pupils of the West," he said.

    Lewis said the Islamic world tried to understand what went wrong. Islamic countries like Turkey and Iran first tried to answer the question by looking inward, but they failed to come up with a sufficient explanation so they began to look to the rest of the world for an antagonist.

    "This is the prevalent mood in much of the Islamic world," Lewis said. "Multiply the feeling in Europe by about a factor of 1,000."

    Economic disparities have affected the Middle East on the most basic familial, regional and societal levels, he said. Turkey was successful at modernizing itself, but Turkey, along with Iran, never came under Western imperialism.

    In the rest of the Middle East, Lewis said there are two groups of countries. The first maintains friendly relations with the United States, but its population blames the United States for installing corrupt political regimes. The second group of countries is led by passionately anti-American statesmen while their masses look to the United States for liberation.

    My summation:
    In essence then, Lewis is suggesting the problem is a combination of an ethnic inferiority complex (looking for someone to blame for their lack of success), the after-effects of colonialism, economic and political failure in the regions, and a dislike for the message (if not the reality) of "Hollywood America" in regions where all they have is religion to sustain them. Add in the occasion bit of "institutional arrogance" which all superpowers exercise from time to time -- which doesn't sit well with the Middle-east concept of "face" and their already mention poor national pride -- and Lewis has come up with one of the best theories as to why the Middle East looks at the US as they do.

    The question is, how to change this view... and is it even possible?
     
  16. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Some lessons just take a long time to learn.
     
  17. yazdzik

    yazdzik Veteran Member

    Dear Friends,
    I have two kids- a boy and a girl. I came here, leaving a secure job, which I loved, to make sure that both were treated equally, that neither would have to answer to the police for their identity or whereabouts, and no one could tell them what to believe.
    I am well travelled, and was not always poor. I can honestly say that, whatever else the world has to offer, the ability to contract with our government, as opposed to serve it, it worth all the negative things a thousand times over.
    That I, without children, would trade my civil rights for decent coffee and higher speed limits is one thing. To be able to say to my young that we live in a world set up by Jefferson and friends to be ideal, rather than ethnic, territorial, or cultural, is worth whatever price. America is her laws, and any country, any culture, failing to see the rectitude of secular contract government has little sympathy from me. I am far from a bigot, but to accept chinese communism as a humane alternative to secular agnostic government is unthinkable. To believe that trial by ordeal is civilised is beyond reason. To demand that all people have the right to determine on the individual, rather than communal level, their destiny is not chauvinistic, but idealistic. At some point, if we pride ouselves in our economy, our culture, our beer and cable TV, we shall fall. If we stand, however, before the world, as a beacon of the light of reason, detesting all prejudice of nation and ethnicity, of creed and culture, but offering to all and demanding from all the sweet smile of reason, embodied in our basic law, we shall accomplish that which no religion has yet, we shall have made a better world. A world where compassion is the norm, where kindness prevails, and conflicy is resolved by wit and not by might.
    When people think of America, they ought to think of the Bill of Rights, and not Madonna. Whose fault it is that the converse is true, I know not. But if we live the freedom, and repudiate all prejudgment and hegemony, not only we, but the world will be truly free, governments ruling by contractual consent of the governed, and creating a human justice born of human feeling and intelligence.

    This is America, the land of humanity, compassion, and reason; before her has not been the like, nor after her will come the like again.

    Yazdzik
     
  18. mikepd

    mikepd Veteran Member

    Shiny, that is one damn fine post.

    Responsibility? Power?


    The United States of America has both and I'm sorry if people don't see that. Shiny's post just hit on some of the highlights where America has come to the aid of people in need.

    Perfect? Without reproach? Hell, no. No country is.

    The world is not clearly defined good/evil, black/white. It is never that simple. The world is a big ball of varying shades of gray.

    I would love to see a world where all have an equal chance for good, full life. Just the chance, even.

    The world is full of brutal people who will do brutal things given the slightest opportunity. History is full of examples of this. We are seeing this today in many places in the world.

    You are not going to effect change by going to these people singing 'Kumbaya' and putting flowers in their gun barrels. You have to pick your battles and decide how each one is best waged.

    Every time this country sneezes, instead of someone saying, 'god bless you', you hear 'hey, don't spread your germs'.

    I am sick and tired of hearing *nothing but scorn and criticism for everything this country does*.

    Read your history books, people. Without the US, Europe would have pulled out of WWII a *lot* later than it did. We helped our enemies get their infrastructure back up. We provided the security for 50 years while we got sand kicked in our faces at the UN.

    Europe doesn't like the bad, old US? The Middle East? Africa? Anyone else?

    Ok. Here's the deal. Since Europe is *so* much older and wiser than this brash, upstart colonial- how about we let them have the playground for a change. Let *them* worry about security and related matters.

    //fantasy Presidential declaration on

    We'll just stay here and protect the homefront. Take all our marbles back home where they belong. We hereby announce we are going to do whatever we need to meet our own energy and other infrastructure needs within the country. You don't mess with us and we could not care less what happens anywhere else.

    BTW, screw with us and there will be some glowing parking lots on the face of the planet.

    Have a nice day.

    //fantasy Presidential declaration off

    Mike

    The above post brought to you by an American who says there comes a time when too many apologies become part of the problem and not part of the solution.
     
  19. Biker

    Biker Administrator Staff Member

    Unfortunately, as much as it seems like a good idea to some, isolating ourselves from the rest of the world would create a whole different set of problems.

    We're in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation here. If we help, we're damned for interfering. If we don't help, we're damned for sitting on our laurels.

    Hmmmmmmm.. The more I think about it, Kiss My Ass DOES sound pretty good.
     
  20. mikepd

    mikepd Veteran Member

    Damn right it does! Stand up and be counted. We may not always be right but we try a lot more than some countries to do the right thing. The very same countries that love to put us down.

    Hypocrites.

    My isolationist declaration was a fantasy, of course. Not practical for many, many reasons.

    But if it were ever done for even a short time, listen to some countries that love to take cheap shots at us howl.
     

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