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Thoughts on Rise of Minimum Wage

Discussion in 'Society and Culture' started by ShinyTop, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

    I know. I have traveled a bit, thanks to Uncle Sam. We are regarded as uncouth, arrogant, boisterous and not respectful of other cultures. I do not contest these perceptions.

    Yet, can you name another country that can claim immigrants from every other country on the planet? From Afghanistan to Zimbabwe, they clamor to live here. They lock themselves into a shipping container for two months as the ship crosses the ocean. They stow away in the non-pressurized in areas of aircraft. They cross miles of open desert on foot. They climb onto rafts that would have trouble in a calm lake and cross 90 miles of open ocean on them.

    We must be doing something right.
  2. Susan Addams

    Susan Addams Unregistered User

    Just remember that what is right for all of us may not be perceived as "right" in the invaded countries.
    Allene likes this.
  3. Allene

    Allene Registered User

    Yes, it has something to do with the "can-do" spirit of this country--the American Dream.
  4. Allene

    Allene Registered User

    Exactly! We have rushed in to help countries in trouble, but haven't taken the time to really understand the cultures of these countries.
    Susan Addams likes this.
  5. Susan Addams

    Susan Addams Unregistered User

    Allene, this is what my SA sister has been telling me. We come in and kill a bunch of people, then we leave and the problems are still there, both Americans dead and natives dead, yet and the same problems persist.

    This is why she decided me that the whole Washington DC thing is a circus. She had absolutely no intent nor agenda, she was merely telling me the viewpoint of most PPL (not hers) but it was enough to totally turn my head around.

    I'm no longer political. What difference does it make if both parties are corrupt? These days I'm a stock market girl not a political girl.

    I calculated I made over $1K today in the stock market, "unrealized gains" of course. That dwarfs my contract income. I'm ready for a change. If my job gets cut I'll just sell my condo and open the next chapter of my life in a new venue.
  6. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

    If anything, this is the time to be MOST political. You don't have to join or support D's or R's, however speaking out and removing the corrupt from power is our job as citizens.

    Allene likes this.
  7. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

    Hm. it seems I have to go to Wal-Mart...
  8. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    Unfortunately, politics by design is dishonest and corrupt and those traits are getting more prominent with the passing of time. Neither party has a monopoly on that. Take a person that is in their everyday life is honest and of high integrity, but their occupation is that of a politician. When they speak as a politician half of the time they are lying and making sleazy deals or doing things that are anything but "honest" or examples of high integrity by regular or reasonable standards.
    Allene likes this.
  9. dsl987

    dsl987 Member

    There are two kinds of countries on this planet. Those who use the metric system, and those who lost expensive Mars probes because they mixed up English and Metric units ;-)

    Nov. 10, 1999: Metric Math Mistake Muffed Mars Meteorology Mission
    Allene likes this.
  10. Susan Addams

    Susan Addams Unregistered User

    Please remember that our government was designed by the founders thinking that members of the public would run for office and if elected would serve a term and then return to becoming an ordinary citizen. They never intended for there to be a political class and career politicians. You will recall that for a time people wanted George Washington to become our king. He turned that down but reluctantly served as our first President. Eventually we had our Constitutional Convention in IIRC 1787 and set in place our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

    It was the rise of a political class, political machines and professional politicians that ruined what our Constitutional framers intended.

    Thank you for that. And everybody should understand that our engineering design all the way to automotive repair is now a system of mixed archaic units and SI units, a total cluster fuck. Just think of the inefficiency of requiring a CAD program to be complex enough to handle designs which are a mishmash of both measurement systems. Just think of the inefficiency of requiring auto repair people to purchase two tool sets! I understand that professional mechanics often bring their own tools to the job. This is just crazy.

    Mark, I don't understand your attitude that somehow my criticizing US using the archaic system is in any way an occasion to become defensive. Why not go back to stone as the weight measure if you are so adamant?

    I'm American. I want America to succeed. I am not attacking America by supporting adoption of SI unites in US. I don't understand how you perceive my advocacy of America going metric is in some way threatening our country. As an American I accept that our system, probably any system, is flawed. Wanting to improve and repair the flaws is not un-American. It is pro-American, in that we can join the rest of the world community and we can all unite in a single measurement system.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
    Allene likes this.
  11. dsl987

    dsl987 Member

    I run up against the US versus Metric system everyday in the oil industry. Where the Metric system really shines is the ease of being able to convert between Mass/Weight and Volume. How much does a cubic yard of water weigh? Answer - no idea, i'd have to look up conversion factors. In the Metric system 1 cubic meter of water weighs 1 metric ton. If you want to know how much 1 cubic meter of oil weighs you just multiply by the density and you directly get Metric Tons. Therefore 1 cubic meter times density of 0.9 equals 0.9 Tons, or 900 kilos.
    I left the UK as they were transitioning to Metric, and it always surprised me they never completed the job
    Allene likes this.
  12. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

    Not criticizing. Just poking fun. I am one of those people who have preset phrases that pop out when the appropriate keywords are read/heard.

    Allene likes this.
  13. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

    I have been hearing things on the order of "the meeting between Donald Trump Jr. and the Russian lawyer was to try and 'dirty' the Trump campaign/administration." The goal for this is to keep quiet the whole corrupt scope of the Obama administration, especially concerning the spying/wiretapping of Trump Campaign officials.

    Not everything is known, but from what I have heard and seen, this will make Watergate look like a garden party. Of course, Obama can't be impeached since he's out of office, but if/when the "what did he know and when did he know it" becomes clear, a LOT of people are (hopefully) going to have long-term bookings in Club Fed.
    Allene likes this.
  14. Susan Addams

    Susan Addams Unregistered User

    Mark this is not funny. America not going metric is an admission that we are a country of stupid and uncooperative people. We are being stupid by not going metric because our current dual system is complicating our science and manufacturing. Just what do you think when you drop a foreign made metric engine into an archaic measurement auto? You get an auto that requires two sets of mechanics tools to work on, and as I alluded above AFAIK many mechanics own their tools and bring them from job to job. I understand that good mechanics get good pay, but it's still a drain on them not only owning two sets of tools but constantly switching between sets. "Now let me see, do I need the 5/8" or the 16mm socket?"

    As far as average Americans are concerned I think of them as sheeple. Fat, dumb, happy, fucking their neighbor's spouse, getting drunk or stoned, veged out in front of their TV sets. They don't want change because they are too stupid to change Remember that 50% of Americans are below average intelligence. (And what's more scary, probably 50% of voters are below average intelligence. I have no statistics showing likelihood of voting vs. intelligence, which may not reflect intelligence, e.g. are smart or stupid people more likely to register and vote?)

    I learned metric in college, in my classes that would lead towards my Psy.D. if I pursued that career path. I always get a copy of my blood panels and scan them to PDF for my personal dossier on my medical history. The panels are metric SI units. My current employer manufactures a technological product line which has to get along with the mishmash of units. The mechanical engineering department has to deal in two systems of units because some subsystems are manufactured in-house or by subsidiaries while others are purchased from outside suppliers, of which some are metric and some are archaic. Don't you think that costs more money in excess labor and confusion causing mistakes? There was the example given of some spacecraft mishap caused by dual systems of units and the confusion that caused. Make no mistake that America not going metric costs American business money!

    This is where my rambling rant turns back on topic. We are constantly hitting our businesses with expensive demands. I think that hitting businesses with bottom feeder jobs (jobs where you learn everything you need to know at your first day on the job) with forced wage increases is just the latest onerous demand. The fast food industry is one example in that many of their jobs are "entry level" jobs (with no exit except back to unemployment). I suspect labor is one of the largest expenses in this highly competitive business. IMO people who eat "fast" food aren't really selecting for fast they are selecting for cheap and fast. "Cheap" is the important factor, and brand preferences aside IMO most people are looking for a good, cheap, fast meal. (Remember the joke? "I can give you any two of the three...") To be sure if we raise the cost of labor we will raise the cost of the product, and since all the fast food "restaurants" face the same economics the obvious end result in thee short term is that retail prices will go up everywhere.

    That's the short term though. In the long term the smart people at the corporate level will strive to reduce the cost of their product in order to become more competitive and lower their retail prices, and they're going to get rid of people by increasing automation in the workplace. They are already test marketing order kiosks, in essence replacing the person who takes orders with an ATM like machine. Punch in your order then hit "total" and feed your money into the cash and coin acceptors. The machine spits out your change and your order is entered into the system, and the only human involved is the customer.

    They are not going to stop there. Why hire a fry cook when you can have a fry machine with auto-feed hoppers for fries and hash brown patties? Why not a hamburger patty machine? Dump a 10 Kg sack of ground beef in the input hopper and as the data network spits out hamburger orders at the machine and the cooked patties get delivered the output chute. The fry machine delivers ready to serve baggies of fries and hash browns. And likewise across the franchise's product line.

    In the end all the low wage jobs will be gone. The higher the government raises the wages of unskilled laborers the more franchises are encouraged to hire fewer, skilled workers and make the necessary investments in automation to get rid of any need for unskilled labor. Instead, the instant, cheap food industry will become dominated by automated franchises where the labor force will consist of jobs like manager, food automation engineer, and a mere smattering of unskilled jobs because floors need to be cleaned and the trash needs dumping. (The food automation engineer will probably feed the machine inputs and fix them when they require maintenance.) The end result of continued raises for unskilled labor will be the disappearance of unskilled jobs.

    The fast food industry will always be with us but the unskilled jobs are going away. That's what you get when the liberals think they are helping build their poor, unskilled voter base by increasing wages for dumb people with no particular skills. The end result will be more unemployed unskilled people (changing fewer unskilled jobs). Any attempts at raising those jobs is just going to result in more automation, and fewer such jobs.
  15. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

    Yes, yes and YES!

    A government-forced minimum wage destroys entry level jobs because there is no way an unskilled worker can generate enough product/service that the employer can pay the employee that $15/hour.

    The average restaurant has a 30% labor cost and a 2-6% net profit margin. You can't mandate a minimum wage that would force their labor costs north of 50% and not expect a) a rise in prices, b) less workers being employed or c) the restaurant going out of business entirely.

    A rise in prices causes a lowering of sales. Less job openings mean more people dependent on Uncle Sam (maybe that's what they want). And of course, closing E-V-I-L businesses that exploit workers is ALWAYS good!

    It has gotten to the point where entry-level jobs require "3+ years experience" because you need to be that good to make it worth the employers time and effort to hire you. But where do you get the experience?

    By the way, the reason why unions are in on the side of the #fightfor15 is because their wages are indexed to the minimum wage. If a unionized plumber makes $14.50/hour (indexed to double the minimum wage) and the minimum wage hits $15, his pay goes to $30/hour. If you think plumbers are expensive now, wait until that happens!
    Allene likes this.
  16. Susan Addams

    Susan Addams Unregistered User

    All we are going to accomplish by making the minimum wage $15/hour is (1) force business to automate, (2) move people from the entry level to unemployed, and (3) eliminate jobs for people like young persons living with their parents who want to replace their allowance with honest work.

    This is just another liberal/Marxist idea that we can somehow pass laws to make all people equal. Fact is, we are not all equal. Some of us believe in learning skills instead of having a guaranteed paycheck and minimum rate will guarantee that a no-skill person can generate an income sufficient to support mommy, daddy and two children on one no-skill entry level job.

    Dream on. In your Marxist dream HRC is president...
  17. Allene

    Allene Registered User

    It is simply beyond me why some people cannot see the dark side of socialism. I went to Russia on a Citizen Ambassador People-to-People trip in 1993. Before I went over there, I read a book about the early days after the Revolution. A lot of naive young people thought they were setting up a brave new world. Then Stalin came to power and brutally got rid of the best of them. When you make the playing field too level, you take away the initiative to improve, and set yourself up for an eventual dictatorship.
    MemphisMark likes this.
  18. Susan Addams

    Susan Addams Unregistered User

    Socialism: "They pretend to pay us, we pretend to work." I think that was in one of Martin Cruz Smith's novels, perhaps "Gorky Park." Suzy recommends Smith! Good reading! :)

    Smith's character is a Soviet police officer who is a good man who is always trying to deliver justice when the system doesn't want justice. If you like the debut novel there are several more.
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  19. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

    George Orwell (who was a Socialist) basically wrote Animal Farm about the Socialist system. Socialism is the biggest sale of crap goods in the history of mankind. All of our domestic Socialists think the "everybody will be equal" concept is a good thing, and "they know" they will get to be in the ruling class, when in reality they will be the useful idiots ground to dust under the jackbooted heel of oppression.
    Allene likes this.
  20. Susan Addams

    Susan Addams Unregistered User

    The real problem is that everybody is NOT equal. The correct attitude is that everybody should be given equal opportunities. It is up to each person to make the correct choices in their lives. I have two BA degrees. Am I equal to some illegal immigrant who cannot speak English?

    A smart immigrant would learn English and then take night school or whatever it takes to get the education they need to earn the job of their dreams.

    Let me explain the second sentence of my signature. "Don't dream dreams that won't come true." (I got both phrases from a novel I read that made a great impression on me.) What it means is don't just sit there and dream, it means that if you want your dream to come true you have to do whatever it takes to make it come true. If you are not willing to sacrifice whatever it takes to earn your dream, then you are just delusional that it can happen without work.

    You do not have any call to dream for something and then do nothing to make it happen, that's what my second sentence means. That is the kind of dream I am admonishing against.

    I can't speak for anybody else but I am determined to make my dreams come true, and I'm working hard to make that happen. And my dreams are already happening!
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