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The Drug War is ongoing because...

Discussion in 'Society and Culture' started by ethics, Jul 6, 2012.

  1. Biker

    Biker Administrator Staff Member

    The Netherlands has been cracking down on drug use as well. No longer can you just waltz into a cafe in Amsterdam and find your favorite weed.

    All that decriminalizing or legalizing drugs does is lighten the load on the judicial system. That's it. It does nothing to reduce drug use, nor does it have a favorable overall impact on society.
  2. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    If you don't agree with legalizing drugs what is your solution? What we are doing is not working. It is not bringing down the number of users, it is merely making hard criminals out of a record number of people, which should not be our goal, IMHO.
  3. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Right? So instead of being anti-something, propose a better solution. Status quo is NOT an option.
  4. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    Alright, well, for starters we need to militarize our borders. We need to do this for more than one reason. First, the horrific violence that is going on south of the border is really starting to spill over into the US and we need that to stop. We also need to control illegal immigration. We need a locked down border, period. We can afford it. We afford National Guard right now, we simply need to divert the funding and resources for that into border security and a DMZ of sorts. Bring the boys home from Afghanistan and have them work on the home front.

    Once we can control import and export, we're golden. In order to stop something like this, you have to either control supply or control demand. You cannot control demand, ever, so supply side is the only way. That requires the hard decisions.

    As for pot, decriminalize it. Class C misdemeanor for user amounts, you get a ticket.

    So... You asked, those are my ideas.
  5. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    We can't afford to not lock down the border. What we have today is a joke. Really closing the border can't not have an effect on illegal drug supply.

    In order to do that we also have to shut down the border to illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants are the camouflage that masks drug flow (and often prospective illegal immigrants are the mules). The only effective way to shut down illegal immigration is to force employers to verify right to work status for all employees. With no work the illegals will not come, and some of the present illegal population will go home. That will make the process of policing the border easier because the percentages will be fewer illegal immigrants and more drug traffickers.

    I haven't heard of any specific terrorist incident or of terrorists entering the US via the same route that illegal immigrants and drugs enter the US via the MX border, but it's a gaping wide hole in US defenses and it is bound to be exploited sooner or later.

    Closing the border will improve all three problems, illegal immigration, drug trafficking and potential terrorism.

    I don't see any point in incarcerating people for simple drug possession and use. Maybe these people could be let go with modest fines and community service. However possession of larger quantities with intent to sell should be harshly dealt with. Decriminalization is not the way to go.

    It's funny that we had a drug epidemic starting 20-30 years ago (or more), and between then and now nothing has seemed to have had much effect on preventing increasing use of drugs. The present day problem is much, much worse. But that's no reason to just give up.

    America used to be the home of the brave and the land of the free, but you can't be brave and free if you're sticking a needle in your arm. The drug epidemic is putting the strength of our country at risk even for non-users. If we don't solve the problem it will help bring us down.
  6. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Guys, I am not against the border and illegal aliens, but should this be priority when it comes to the drug wars? Meth is being done internally, by the white man (predominantly). Bath Salts drugs are in the same boat.
  7. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Meth comes in via the US-MX border too, along with most of the cocaine and heroin (and pot). Fixing the border is not a total solution but it's an important part.

    There is no solution to the "bath salt" problem until the manufacture/sale is made illegal and the drugs classified as whatever they need to be make them illegal.

    What would help a lot is something to cut down demand. Have we become a drug user nation? If so then it's understandable that MX has become a drug dealer nation. Nothing better for a drug user than to have his pusher living next door.
  8. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    A retired DEA friend of mine told me a story some years ago that has stuck with me. When he was a rookie and just a "kid" he started working with a partner sometime in the sixties down by one of the main border crossings from Mexico to the US. I think it was the biggest one, the San Ysidro/Tijuana crossing. They parked on the side of the road in the dark much like a cop laying low to watch for speeders. They had lots of time to talk. All they did was profile cars and occupants coming into the US, (mostly college age types as I recall), for suspected MJ "smugglers." Really kids just bringing in most case stuff for personal use and a lesser number smuggling for distribution. They didn't have to be very busy.

    During their long talks the veteran partner told my friend that what they were watching and doing was just the smallest tip of the iceberg of things to come in the future. The guy said it would probably be impossible to over estimate or exaggerate the changes to come. It would be like a gradual building Tsunami.

    My friend told me the story when we were working together. During that same time I went to lunch with him to where he was meeting an old friend still in the DEA and that he had not seen for a while. At the lunch, circa 1993, the old friend said they had a young drug dealer in custody. He was a really big player. The supply for the guy was in some absolutely out of sight giant warehouse and it was FULL of drugs. The value was hard to estimate but it was literally all most beyond computation.

    The funny part was the drug smuggler could not read or write. Whenever he wanted a certain amount of cash for X-amount of drugs, amounts often in the millions he would have to tell his assistant the figure and the assistant had to right out the amount and make sure the guy put in the right amount of zeroes.
  9. Allene

    Allene Registered User

    I agree with Copz on not legalizing drugs, on locking down the border, etc., and I like the ideas Arc mentioned the other day for making coming here less attractive. I think this would eventually make a difference. I don't think we'll get much help from the current government. They're too busy pitting one group against the other.

    Tijuana creeps me out. It's the only place I've been to in Mexico--for one afternoon in the early 1990s.
  10. Kluge

    Kluge Observing your world for over 50 years

    I kind of agree with the bath salts argument except nobody's criminalizing skateboards and dirt bikes despite video after video of idiots injuring themselves.
  11. dsl987

    dsl987 Member

    Well it's hard to defend a hypothetical situation, but the price of drugs would collapse, after that happened it's hard to tell what would come next. Maybe the cartels would restrict supply to boost profits like OPEC does.

    The war on drugs is not effective today, because practically anybody that wants drugs can get them, does this fit your definition of winning? It certainly doesn't fit mine, and all it does is give kids an easy way to make money selling drugs and then ruin their lives.

    Of course there will always be a drug problem no matter what you do, the point is to stop wasting money on trying to prevent drugs coming into our country, as it clearly doesn't work. It's been estimated that we only intercept between 10 and 30% of drugs, again that doesn't spell success. You would have to intercept 60-75% before it would really hurt the smugglers and even then it would only drive up prices, thereby maintaining profits.

    It's much more efficient to fight the war on the demand side, not the supply side
    "During the early-to-mid-1990s, the Clinton administration ordered and funded a major cocaine policy study, again by RAND. The Rand Drug Policy Research Center study concluded that $3 billion should be switched from federal and local law enforcement to treatment. The report said that treatment is the cheapest way to cut drug use, stating that drug treatment is twenty-three times more effective than the supply-side "war on drugs". "
    ethics likes this.
  12. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    You keep pushing treatment as the answer. Treatment, treatment you continue to push. Do that and things will be dramatically more better. Yet despite the fact that treatment is readily available for all most everyone including both free or at a cost for resort level treatment and that every drug user that gets picked up for a serious violation, and for a first time offender user it has to be serious to risk jail time. Note jail time not prison time. Users can now and have for decades get treatment either without charges against them or through diversion programs to avoid jail in criminal cases.

    In other words all most all cases all users or addicts can get free drug treatment to break the addiction. Only the ones that don't want to quit don't get it.

    Most people are addicted because the choose to be so.

    Your we need more treatment is a straw man and irrelevant argument. We all ready have what you keep trying to sell.

    Finally with the greatest emphasis possible: One has to WANT to get clean and then proactively take the readily available treatment to break the addiction. Most addicts be it "drugs" or "alcohol" or other substances don't break the habit because they don't want to give it up.
  13. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    I don't generally quote entire posts in my reply but I'll make an exception in this case...

    Drug users don't want treatment. They want more drugs. They want better drugs, they want cheaper drugs, they want them more frequently, they want to do drugs 24/7 if they are able to do that. For the vast majority of them they don't want treatment. They don't want anything that interferes with drug use.

    The problem we have here is that so many people prefer a drug induced dream instead of reality. They have given up on real life and the only thing they have left is doping out on drugs.

    I believe that in many ways the American dream has fractured over the last 2-3 decades. American ideals of hard work and reward have been demolished. Hard work was punished (by high taxes and by the pillage of the real estate market). No work has been rewarded (by free benefits, hand out money, subsidized housing). Jobs and industries were exported overseas (along with corporate taxes no longer paid on these shores). Illegal aliens were imported to replace honest hard working citizens with labor who would do the job at 1/4 the price because that same amount was 10x what they got paid in their homeland. And they were further rewarded by free medical treatment that punished hospitals by requiring the hospitals to absorb the cost of handing out free treatment.

    The rules in America have become skewed. Many people have just given up. Hard work no longer guarantees reward. Drug use provides immediate reward even though it is illusory. Many pick the illusion because the real thing is no longer accessible.

    In other words America's drug habit has become popular because our dream has been killed. Restore the dream and that will kill the drug habit.
  14. dsl987

    dsl987 Member

    Well you keep pushing drug interception as the answer, I've got news for you, it's not working, people who want drugs can get them readily. So why have we wasted a Trillion $ on a war to prevent drugs getting to the users when it doesn't work?

    I'd rather take a 1/10th of that money and put it into treatment programs and prevention than keep wasting it on interception. You would also free up the court and prison systems, as well as let cops concentrate on other crimes rather than booking college kids for weed in their car after being pulled over for a burned out tail light.

    We've tried prohibition before, it didn't work then either, why do you think it will be successful with drugs?
  15. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    No I don't. I don't see how I could be any clearer about that.

    My first post starting with the first sentence:

    Second post:

    In another subsequent post by me:

    And another:

    We must stop demand, we must stop demand, we must stop demand, that is the foundation. The user all ways CHOOSES to use drugs. They may or may not plan to get addicted but once they get addicted if they want to break their addiction they have every imaginable opportunity to do so. What part of that do you disagree with?

    Everything you claim we need we have--why do you not see that?

    We have had reams of public education programs including ongoing ones.

    We have virtually unlimited free or low cost programs to get drug free.

    For criminal offenders involving use we offer diversion get drug free programs in lieu of jail.

    The only reason we have a drug problem is because people choose to use drugs and a huge number of them choose to stay on them even when offered the chance to get off. They are the demand. They are the biggest problem and until THE DEMAND is gone we will have a drug problem.

    I’ve made it IMO abundantly clear IMO why we have a demand. Only until we stop glorifying drug use and looking positively overall on high-profile celebrities who use drugs.

    For the one-hundredth time this nation didn’t use to have a hard drug problem until about the seventies. That changed because our cultures and values changed. The result of that change was DEMAND, demand by people that CHOOSE to use drugs, choose to stay on drugs until they go to prison for eventual crimes or they die. Its the same today.

    What you suggest is pointless as it either has been tried or is being tried.

    Eliminate demand. Get it? If you can’t do that then there will all ways be a drug problem unless the supply dries up. As we all know the latter is not going to happen.
  16. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    I am the one who says supply side is the way to go, and I say that supply side has not been attacked. Not with any serious effort. It's been a token effort.

    Treatment is bullshit. I see drug addicts treated all the time. I see government giving free methadone to heroin addicts, they get a great high and come back for more. It doesn't stop their addiction, and it doesn't fix their lives.
  17. Biker

    Biker Administrator Staff Member

    Exactly. And why is that?

    1. The cartels put far too much money into their local and government economies. Everyone is loathe to see that particular cash cow dry up.

    2. Because the governments are corrupt, you get the odd "spectacular" raid for media sound bites. This allows everyone to say they're doing something about the issue, when nothing is really being done.

    If governments were REALLY serious about the drug problem, there'd be cooperation at all levels and there wouldn't be a cartel left within a month.
  18. SixofNine

    SixofNine Jedi Sage Staff Member

    Apparently a crackdown on meth manufacturing in the U.S. has led to their ascendancy in Mexico. The cartels love it because of the ease of logistics and the fact that they get to keep all the profits, as opposed to their distributor roles for other drugs.

  19. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    Correct. So what CAN be done that isn't being done? Well, for starters, we currently arm our border agents with beanbags. We currently underman them. I say we immediately deploy the National Guard along our southern border at fixed outposts. 150 feet in the air, a cleared demilitarized zone 300 yards wide at the border. A Humvee at the bottom in case there is a breech. ARM THEM. M-16's with 200 rounds each. Nightvision, and lighting in the worst zones. Constantina wire. Permission to fire if fired upon, from wherever it originates. Video for proof.

    Next, we start drone attacks on border cartel compounds. Seriously. Treat the cartels like they're combatants, because they are. They're murderous organizations that are harming the US, and the nations they originate in do nothing about them.

    In order to fix the problem, we need to bring the appropriate resources to combat the problem to bear. The trouble is nobody has the nuts to do it.

    Copzilla for President. I have the nuts to do it.
  20. Biker

    Biker Administrator Staff Member

    Problem is, the cartels will just go deeper into Mexico. And without Mexico's cooperation, we'll be back to the same old stalemate within weeks.

    I say starve Mexico out. No more shipments into the country. No more border crossings. Freeze their assets. Once they start cooperating in full, with full on military operations against every cartel in the country, THEN we resume being nice and friendly. Until then, they can be the isolated, festering cesspool they've always been.

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