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Texas Executes an Innocent Man

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by ethics, Aug 25, 2009.

  1. mikeky

    mikeky Member

    Is that execution is used as a punishment what you consider barbaric, or that there is the potential that an innocent person might be executed?
     
  2. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Execution may be a punishment but it's more than that: it completely fixes the problem. It's a known fact that there's no recidivism from criminals who have been executed.

    I hate to say it but some people are so evil that they just need killing. They need killing so that in the future they won't continue to hurt the honest, won't hurt the innocent, won't hurt the weak.

    When somebody is that evil I don't see any good reason why society should be expected to house them, feed them, clothe them and confine them for the rest of their lives. And anyway they might hurt other evil people in prison, people who are evil but not so evil that they need killing.
     
  3. Buzz

    Buzz Full Member


    Both

    1 the legal system is flawed and the innocent are executed along with the guilty - this is fact

    2 human life has value

    3 as a civilised society, we cannot commit state sanctioned executions because it is uncivilised.
     
  4. Buzz

    Buzz Full Member

    You make some good points. Some people do need killing, but who decides and who does the killing? You have to pay an executioner to kill people, like the Saudi swordsmen who take off the heads of women in a public square because they have been found guilty of being a witch and need killing. That swordsman is a murderer.

    These are the countries that agree with you - notice Australia is not on this list.

    Countries with the Most Confirmed Executions in 2008
    1. China (1,718)
    2. Iran (346)
    3. Saudi Arabia (102)
    4. United States (37)
    5. Pakistan (36)
    6. Iraq (34)


    You will agree Saudi Arabia are barbarians.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKavHiQCSLw
     
  5. mikeky

    mikeky Member

    Is the absence of justice not considered uncivilized? If someone commits a crime so severe that the only punishment that would provide justice to society as a whole and to the victims is death, why would that punishment be considered uncivilized?
     
  6. ditch

    ditch Downunder Member

    My bold.


    But that's exactly the point of difference between those against and those in favour of the death penalty isn't it? Killing the criminal should not occur, should never be an option. The anti DP view is that there is never a case where the state should have the right to kill anyone, period. The severity of the crime is not the point.


     
  7. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    No Ditch, while there are people who are against death penalty for those reasons, I'm not in the same boat as them. My reasoning has always been that with the current justice system, you have a high risk of killing an innocent person.
     
  8. mikeky

    mikeky Member

    You're right (except as ethics pointed out); I was just thinking about his use of the term uncivilized, what that would really mean in terms of justice. I suppose those absolutely opposed to the death penalty believe that justice can be served without it.
     
  9. ditch

    ditch Downunder Member

    Yes. The possibility of an innocent person dying is a second major factor. But a possibility that should equally concern those on both sides of the debate.
     
  10. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    I'm content to leave that up to the executioner and his own beliefs. How is this different from our soldiers killing the opposing side? Are you telling me that all who serve in our military are murderers? If the pilot of a bomber is a murderer, then how about the carrier deck hand who fuels his jet? How about our President? How about those of us who voted the President in?

    Fuck your countries list. :)
     
  11. Buzz

    Buzz Full Member

    quote Greg

    I'm content to leave that up to the executioner and his own beliefs. How is this different from our soldiers killing the opposing side? Are you telling me that all who serve in our military are murderers? If the pilot of a bomber is a murderer, then how about the carrier deck hand who fuels his jet? How about our President? How about those of us who voted the President in?


    The executioner is slaughtering innocent people and is a state sanctioned murderer. He would do it to you as soon as look at you. In Saudi Arabia, they execute witched often - and all it takes is for some man to say that some woman is a witch - and she is executed. It sounds like Monty Python but it's true.

    I am not talking about soldiers in a war, or someone killing in self defence or even killing in a moment of madness or passion. I am talking about the cold blooded execution of a citizen - even when they are innocent - which is the theme of this thread. I make a distinction between execution and killing in war or crime.

    The execution is state sanctioned slaughter of its own citizens. Often this especially includes the innocent. You can say what about so-and-so but I am talking about the innocent.

    The election of a president is irrelevant - I do not regard those killed in a war to be the death penalty - for two reasons - war is war, and war is hell. Even the execution of prisoners is well known, and atrocities such at those often talked about in Vietnam. In war people are pushed to extremes and extreme events occur because of it.

    However, the mass genocide of civilians by a state is a crime against humanity.

    Those things are not the point with the execution by law, of citizens by the law. The death penalty has nothing to do with war. Saudi Arabia is not at war with the Philippines - it just executes its citizens when it gets the chance.

    I am saying that innocent people have been executed and this is a travesty and the only way to ensure this doesnt happen is to abolish the death penalty.

    and this gem from Greg

    Fuck your countries list. :)

    You can tell a lot about people by the company they keep.

    That countries list is indicative of the whole point of this thread.
     
  12. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    PBS is presenting the Frontline episode tonight on this incident. Frontline episodes are also available online at PBS to watch at your leisure. I'm not sure if there is a delay of a day or two before the episodes are available. However, once available they stay that way generally for quite some time.
     
  13. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    I watched the program. It was a very interesting and informative documentary.
     
  14. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    Strange, after all the heated debate over the subject a professional documentary is presented on it presenting both sides of the "argument" and no one has any comments? Probably few got the chance to actually watch it.

    Well sometime in the near future like all Frontline documentaries you will be able for free to watch it online. When I see that it is available I will post the information. The program sure had a lot of information presented in a clear and detailed manner.
     
  15. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    One more bit about this story.

    Last night I found a free Kindle version of Inferno: An Inquiry Into the Willingham Fire by J. Bennett Allen on Amazon. It's more of a monograph than a book, and the formatting could be better, but it was very enlightening. Very fast read for me - maybe an hour.

    Allen pulls in testimony, such as it was, from all of the "investigators" who looked in to the fire. That testimony raises all sorts of questions about things when compared to witness statements. It's kind of scary to read the testimony and picture the men on the witness stand, fully believing everything he was saying.

    Willingham's defense attorney even believed he was guilty, based on the bad fire science.

    Allen lays out the floor plan of the house, then looks at what investigator Manual Vasquez testified, then tries to recreate the conditions Vasquez testified to. Allen figured it would have taken in the neighborhood of 8 gallons of lighter fluid to create the "soaked" conditions Vasquez testified had to exist. Yet all they found was a single one-quart container.

    Interesting read, if you still have questions about this case.
     
  16. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    Full Frontline PBS video online about this case and all the issues, arguments, rebuttals, and opinions.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/death-by-fire/
     
  17. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

  18. Allene

    Allene Registered User

    Very sad!
     

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