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Study: Schools becoming more segregated

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by Misu, Jan 19, 2003.

  1. Misu

    Misu Hey, I saw that.


    According to a recent study, schools are becoming more and more resegregated. Surprisingly, it is schools in the "Yankee" states that are becoming resegregated - schools in the south are desegregating more and more every year.

    <i>High private school enrollment, particularly in the South, also contributes to the decline in integration in public schools by decreasing the white population, the study found -- and white students attending private schools learn in an even more racially segregated environment than their public school counterparts. </i>

    So are our public schools 'not good enough' for white kids, but ok for kids of minorities? And could the ever decreasing funding towards public education be affected by less and less white kids attending schools?
  2. Biker

    Biker Administrator Staff Member

    Quite frankly, the state of public education overall is in serious trouble, and I wouldn't consider it good enough for any kid in many places. Until the politicians get it through their thick skulls that the 3 R's are more important than all this other BS they're forcing on the schools, it will continue to be in sad shape.
  3. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Our public schools are sufficiently bad that I would support anyone who has the means and desire to send their child to private school. The quality of private school education is no secret, hell they were better when the public schools were actually providing an adequate education.

    The biggest thing wrong with public education is the mamby pamby catering and cowtowing to minority interests to the extent that the revisionists have won. In many california schools there are actual quotas by race for how many students can be disciplined and suspended etc...bad behavior is bad behavior no matter the color. The schools want to 'celebrate' every culture in the classroom, to the exclusion of the culture of the classroom, where actual education is paramount and discipline effective, including corporal punishment.

    Perhaps the place to start is by bussing politically appointed and hired administrators to the worst of schools are putting their offices in with the prinicipal's.
  4. Misu

    Misu Hey, I saw that.

    Coot, do you support government vouchers for parents to send their kids to Private schools?

    This was a hot hot topic last year, when it went up for vote - the voters had to decide whether they would allow tax money to go for voucher so kids from poor families could attend private schools.

    That really did piss me off, because I always had to go to public school. My family wasn't poor, but both my parents worked. And they worked damned hard - my dad at one point had 2 jobs, and my mom worked as a seamstress, which meant there were nights she would take work home with her to continue working (a la piece work), and I would help her. We all had to work in order to survive, and my parents couldn't afford to send me to private school. So why the hell does a poor family get to send their kids to private school, when the majority of middle-class families are struggling to keep their homes and feed their kids, and have to send their kids to public schools?

    I don't recall of the voucher thing ever passed, but I do remember there was much anger about it. It was totally unfair. If poor people get to send their kids on our tax dollars, why not middle class people, too? We can't afford it either, and middle class children are just as exposed to terrible public school environments.
  5. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    I don't think vouchers are a perfect solution, or all that good of one for that matter...it is however better than what's happening now. It would not be the poor kids that would go to private schools, but rather middle income kids. The vouchers do not cover all the costs of private school, but in many instances could help put the family over the top financially and enable them to afford it. Fewer kids would be getting screwed out of an education.

    Vouchers will not help the public schools or the students left in them and that remains a problem. As to the decline of the public schools, before that can be dealt with, we have to be willing to separate the items we have control over from the ones we don't. The things we do have control over are administrative policies and curriculum. Those can be fixed, albeit not easily, by turning a deafer ear to baseless complaints and being less sensitive to diversity. The schools are there to educate our children, socializing them should be way down the list. We've engendered a forum for excuses rather than excellence. I strongly suspect that the concept of "be the best you can be" with respect to academics is largely foreign in our schools. If we simply started demanding excellence from the students with no quarter given for bad behavior, the truly bad apples would remove themselves and all of the remaining kids would do far better than they are now.

    The things that we have no control over are cultural or at least subcultural. The innercities, where the worst schools are, have a disproportionately high instance of single moms with little or no skills as heads of household. That makes it extremely difficult to promote academics and scholarly discipline.
  6. FrankF

    FrankF #55170-054

    Re: Re: Study: Schools becoming more segregated

    Three of my kids (soon to be a fourth one) attended Vista Fundamental School in Simi Valley, CA. Although it is a public school, it is one of the few schools included in the "schools of choice" program. Students attend the school because they and their parents choose for them to attend school there. Students learn the three Rs, they are expected to do homework everyday (which is checked and graded), they write book reports. A "C" or better average and good attendance are expected or else they are suspended.

    I can't say the same for all public schools... I know many suck. I am thankful that my kids attend a good public school.
  7. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    I know what you mean Frank, when we moved to Simi, our son wanted out of private school, and after carefully checking things out, we were okay with that. We came here from Long Beach and that should speak volumes as to why he was in private school.

    Our granddaughter lives in Burbank, and to me public school is not an option. We kick in so that she can go to private school.
  8. Biker

    Biker Administrator Staff Member

    The scarey thing is it's happening all over. After looking at the public schools up here, we decided to put our daughter in a private school as well. It's amazing kids can even walk and breath these days.
  9. Jedi Writer

    Jedi Writer Guest

    As a 56 year old native Californian I especially find the LAUSD appalling! Here the three Rs stand for reading, riting, and reloading. Half the kids can't even speak understandable English or write a complete sentence.

    The LAUSD is more a special interest group and political organization than an educational one. As an <i>overall group</I> the kids are dumber than dirt. Sadly the same could be said about a great portion of HS kids in America.

    Don't even get me started on colleges and Universities!
  10. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    The appointment of Roy Roemer...former Coloroado governor as the LAUSD top dawg should have raised more than a few cackles from folks. The guy is a well known political infighter...perhaps it's not so odd that Richard Riordan found that to be a plus.
  11. martissimo

    martissimo Veteran Member

    Re: Re: Re: Study: Schools becoming more segregated

    WOW, a couple of Simi Valley people in this thread, i was raised and schooled in Simi, and still own (but only rent out) a home there.

    You gotta admit, that comparing public schools in a place like Simi though is really unfair, people raised in that sweet little valley have it a lot better than the average product of the public education system.

    I don't know if vouchers are the answer, or frankly if there is even a simple answer... but i firmly believe that any student who shows great promise early in his youth deserves some of the same opporutnities as some brat who could care less about his education but is still going to be a product of stellar schools due to the size of his parents bank account
  12. Cariad

    Cariad cymru am byth

    Most parents send their kids to private schools because they are smaller, and they do stick to the fundamentals as Biker mentioned, the 3 R's. It's not so easy for a child to fall through the cracks in a private school. If a child is absent, within half hour of the school opening, phone-calls are made to track down parents and ask why. I can understand why the mass exodus to private for those fortunate to be able to afford it.

    I teach and send my son to private school. There are only 255 Students. We have kids from all walks of life, different races and religion, although it's a Catholic school, quite a few non-catholics have enrolled. And it certainly isn't a predominately white school, there are approx. 50 white students enrolled at present.

    Private schools insist on more parental involvement, a parent can't expect to send their child to us for 6 hours a day and not expect to find out what's going on with that child and participate, public school is more lax, so many students to keep track of.

    I know 85% of the kids in my school by their first and last name, as does my son, there is no way I would give up the closeness of a private school and send him to the local public. When he reaches high school age, tuition jumps to approx. $550+/month, but Ill find that money from somewhere.

    I don't believe vouchers should be introduced, unless local government are prepared to refund money to those of us who send our kids private already.
  13. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Great post, Cariad, and I totally agree.

    As a matter of fact, if my daughter didn't get accepted to a magnet program, she would have gone to either a Catholic or Jewish private school for the same reason you've stated above.

    I know joseftu is against this, and I can understand the reasons for public funding but I am sorry, I can't sacrifice my kid's growth when the entire city hasn't done anything towards education for years.
  14. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    As I stated earlier, I think vouchers are a marginal idea, however, in places like the LAUSD and the Pasadena Unified School District, there is substantial potential value to this. If even 10% of the kids in these districts can have their lives spared the ruination of 12-13 years in systems like these, then I say it needs to be done.
  15. joseftu

    joseftu ORIGINAL Pomp-Dumpster

    I live in Park Slope, Brooklyn. It's an upper middle class ("yuppie") but fairly racially mixed (more than most other American places, especially outside of the major cities) neighborhood. It's pretty, with tree-lined streets, a beautiful park, a nice mix of small businesses and restaurants, and some million-dollar brownstones mixed in with apartments and more modest one- or two-family houses.

    In the center of the neighborhood is PS 321. It's a public school, one of the "best" in the city. It's big and crowded, with "award-winning" and "progressive" curriculum, high test scores, and an extremely involved and active group of parents. Real estate ads often say "PS 321" and people will go through all kinds of shenanigans (using fake addresses, renting empty studio apartments, pulling political strings) to get their kids into 321. It's not at all an all-white school, and parents are proud of the school's "diversity." But it's much whiter than Brooklyn as a whole, and probably whiter than Park Slope.

    My daughter is in the second grade. She doesn't go to 321. We're just over the border into the "other" district. She goes to PS 282. PS 282 is a wonderful school. My daughter is very happy there, and learning a lot. There is a committed principal, who knows every kid's name and personality. The standards are high, discipline is strict and old-fashioned, and test scores are quite good (not as high as 321). It's really everything a neighborhood school should be. And it's really in the same neighborhood as 321 (the two schools are about six or seven blocks apart).

    But here's the thing. Parents who are zoned for 282, instead of 321, will bend over backwards, lie, cheat, teach their kids never to reveal their real address, appeal to the board of ed, anything, to get their kids out of 282 and into 321 (or one of the "alternative" schools in 321's district). They'll even pay for private school, if they can afford it, because they consider 282 just completely unacceptable. Why? Because 282 is a "black" school. This is never openly said by "liberal" parents. They'll use all kinds of excuses, but it's clear as soon as they look at the kids on the playground.

    The problem then becomes self-perpetuating. Black and Latino parents from all over the city fight to get their kids into 282, and white parents fight to get their kids out.

    White parents (especially yuppie liberals) just feel damn nervous when they see a classroom full of little Black and Latino kids, and they imagine their beautiful white Brittany in there, and they just shut down. "No way. That school is not right."

    It's sad.

    There are some terrible public schools out there, absolutely. But there are also some real gems! And sometimes, because of this increasing segregation, people just reject those gems.
  16. joseftu

    joseftu ORIGINAL Pomp-Dumpster

    Hey, ethics, no!
    I'm not opposed to your decision at all...I don't mean to imply that racism is <b>always</b> the reason.
    It's a tough decision, and you have to do what you have to do to make sure your child's in a good situation.
    I know I'm lucky 282 is a good school, and if it wasn't, I'd be scrambling, too. And I know you investigated, and didn't just reject the local public schools blindly. That's all I'm really recommending.
  17. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Joseftu, GREAT post!!!!

    I've heard about the politics of 282 and 321 but not this candid. Thank you!
  18. Coriolis

    Coriolis Bob's your uncle

    Re: Re: Study: Schools becoming more segregated

    Slightly OT, but I wanted to state how much I agree with Cariad on this: Not only are public schools more lax on parental involvement, in my experience they actually discourage it!

    We sent our kids to a parents co-op nursery school for the main reason that we want to be involved, take part in the curriculum development, hiring new teachers, handling admissions and finances, etc. It's a parent's run school. It was great for our kids, and great for us.

    Now my son just started kindergarden this year in the public school system. We were lucky enough to be zoned into the best public school in our town (by MCAS standards). However, we are finding it very difficult to stomach -- the PTA is a joke, the administration do not want to hear from parents, heck, they don't even want parents to walk their kids to their classroom in the morning because it's too disruptive to the teachers. I can understand why this is this, in a large school, but the attitude is essentially "your job is done, now we are taking over".

    We're going to try hard for privite school next year, but it's so bloody expensive that it's highly unlikely we'll be able to.
  19. Techie2000

    Techie2000 The crowd would sing:

    Yes I agree that one of the biggest problems with public schools is that people don't really "know" each other as far as teachers to students and teachers to parents go. I've personally always made a point of getting to "know" my teachers to the point where they will still recognize me when I'm not in their class. My middle school tech. ed. teachers (who also work at the high school) still say hello to me in the hallway even though I'm haven't been in any of their classes at the HS for two years, and they still know me by name.
  20. FrankF

    FrankF #55170-054

    Voucher might be a good idea if implemented properly. My concern is that they drain money away from the already bad public schools. That in itself isn't bad either.

    If fewer kids go to public schools, they won't need to have as many teachers, won't need as many building facilities, and will have lower expenses... so everything should even out.

    But what if parents who want to send their kids to private school are given vouchers valued at $1000 per month... when the real cost to the school district is $600 per month to attend public school? Well then... the $400 per month drain per student will result in public schools getting even worse.

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