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"Readin' and Writin' and Robbery..."

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by BigDeputyDog, Jan 25, 2003.

  1. BigDeputyDog

    BigDeputyDog Straight Shootin Admin Staff Member

    A new course of study for our high school students?

    Quoted from this article:

    School administrators, principals and teachers at the schools say they had no idea that the group of students was plotting crimes almost daily in November and December.

    School officials say they are not responsible for missing the gang's activities on school properties.

    "The staff and faculty are there to help them to learn, not to be their parents," said Roz Dick, president of the Lawrence Central Parent Faculty Organization. "It's their parents' job to teach them right from wrong, not the principal or teachers."

    But that wasn't good enough for the father of two Broad Ripple students.

    "They are there to learn how to read and write, not to learn how to become crooks, you know?" Ray Williamson said. "So (for the staff) to say, 'Oh, no, that's not my job' is simply ridiculous."

    School's problem? Parent's problem?
    Let's play "Pin The Blame On The Guilty"...

    BDD... :{)
  2. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    I don't think this society will climb out of that moral and ethical hole until we start blaming the perpetrators.
  3. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    The blame has to start with the criminals but must include room for the parents who did not teach well and did not question the activities of the kids. The school is not responsible unless they knew of the activity and failed to notify the authorities. I don't think you can argue the school had an obligation to know.
  4. Misu

    Misu Hey, I saw that.

    Ok... so? These are kids, kids do stuff like this all the time.

    You guys should have gone to *my* highschool...
  5. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    These were crimes committed at the point of a gun. Deaths could have easily resulted. Cannot dismiss with kid will be kids.
  6. Misu

    Misu Hey, I saw that.

    No, I'm not saying dismiss it because they're kids - and most of them were 18 and older. One was 23 - if these guys were in HS, there is something seriously wrong with those schools.

    Also, the schools didn't have metal detectors - and one of them didn't have any on-campus police. I'm sorry, but in this day and age, and given the AGES of some of the students in the HS, who was the genius administrator who decided not put any of these necessary things? If they were allowing weapons on campus - and the fact they didn't know means nothing, as they decided to NOT implement metal detectors or campus police - they weren't taking their jobs seriously enough. School isn't JUST where students go for an education - it's an extremely important part of their social upbringing. If the school wasn't putting any effort forward to protecting students from each other, can one honestly be surprised that this sort of thing has happened?

    Parents can only do so much - I will use my brother as an example. My parents coddled him like you wouldn't believe. But he was also disciplined. As was I. We were taught right from wrong. My parents did a damned good job raising us - yet my brother has a criminal record, is an alcoholic, and is a recovering drug addict. The reality is, parents can only do so much to teach their kids morals - but ultimately, it's the kids' who decide what they're going to do. And in this case, the kids saw that the school was WIDE OPEN, there were absolutely NO security measures put in place whatsoever, and they took advantage of it.

    For the school to sit there and throw it's hands up in the air and go "WE DIDN'T KNOW, WE'RE NOT PARENTS"... wtf? So the school doesn't care what happens inside it's walls? Let the kids kill each other, they'll cover their asses by saying WE DIDN'T KNOW? Sorry, that isn't going to work.
  7. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    Misu, these students were not in a Robbery Club with a teacher sponsor. There is no way in the world that students will not have conversations and plans that the school does not know about. If we tried to place a teacher in every conversation on campus we would be violating rights of the students and every one of us should object. If we let our schools stick to education and let parents be parents we might be happily surprised at the results.

    There are individuals who will commit crimes regardless of parental concern and action. They will also do so regardless of school concern and action. But teaching right from wrong is for parents. Knowing what the child does outside of school is the parents domain. Social engineering is not what I sent my children to school for and I don't think they should be used for that now. When you decide the school should be teaching other than reading, writing, and arithmetic you will also be violating parents rights to raise their children and you will get the debacle that was the teach in's in Oakland. That arrogance and abuse of power scares me a lot more than the school not knowing that some students were robbing stores.

    The issue of metal detectors and security of schools is one that is faced in every school system in the country every day. The budgeting of limited resources is a very unhappy reality. I firmly believe if we had allowed schools to stay with strict standards of student behavior and high standards for grading, the education system would not be in this condition.
  8. BigDeputyDog

    BigDeputyDog Straight Shootin Admin Staff Member

    When will it be time for the school systems to stop being the "moral police" and go back to being EDUCATORS??

    The blame lies primarily on the criminals... yes, I said CRIMINALS! They are of an age where they can discern the difference between right and wrong... and also of an age where they can be tried as adults...

    I fault the parents for not knowing (not caring??) what is going on in their children's lives... They could not see that their offspring were purchasing things for which they didn't have the money?? Gold caps for your teeth are not something you pick up at the local neighborhood convenient store...

    Why should the school administration be charged with the burden of making sure that each child had their books, papers, pens, pencils... and oh yeah... "check your gun at the door" :rolleyes:

    It's time for people to take responsibility for their own actions... time for parents to return to a time when they were involved in their children's lives and activities... Making the school system the sole dispensers of "moral teaching" is, IMHO, another way of saying "Oh please!! Let the government take care of me and be responsible!!!"... Hog Wash!!!

    Toss the criminals in jail and let the students who want to learn return to the time of "Readin', 'Ritin, and 'Rithmetic"...

    BDD... :{)
  9. mikepd

    mikepd Veteran Member

    BDD, there you go making way to much common sense. Personal responsibility, what a novel concept, right up there with parental involvement. Next thing you know, you will be advocating teaching basic fundamental skills for independent critical analysis.

    Now that would be a concept.
  10. Misu

    Misu Hey, I saw that.

    The school isn't being the moral police - but the school is allowing security to be way too lax.

    And why do you assume the parents didn't teach the kids right from wrong? There aren't that many bad parents in the world. These kids did what they did because they wanted to. Their parents are just as much victims as the people who were robbed.

    And I'm sorry, but if public schools are going to run using *my* tax dollars, they need to be prepared for things like thugs walking in through the door. Expecting your child to attend school in a gun-free environment isn't an extravagence. It's common sense. And in today's world, where anyone can pick up a gun just about any where, it's to be expected that SOMEONE is going to ignore the morals their parents instilled in them and is going to bring a gun to school.

    And that thing about teachers not knowing what goes on... BS. Teachers know what's going on, they have to - they work there and spend just as much time there as the kids do, and if the kids knew what was going on, you can bet at least 1 teacher knew. But maybe didn't believe it, for whatever reason. The fact the school is covering by saying they didn't know and it's not their responsibility means nothing.
  11. pupowski

    pupowski Banned

    You're preaching to the choir shiny. If these students had to meet competitive academic and behavioral standards they wouldn't have the time for a crime wave. I don't , however,see much a school can do with incorrigables but expel them.

    Social engineering, however, is not all bad. Look at how many wayward youths benefitted from a stint in the military. We have a large sub-culture of youth who view crime and prison as normal parts of life. The peer pressure is an important factor. Gangs are poor substitutes for parents and community. We need to be accountable as a society, and offer incentives and dis-incentives, or live with the status quo.

    Freebies are not the best motivators, and prison is not the best deterrent. The vast majority of people are motivated by survival instincts, approval , and a sense of belonging or being needed. Unfortunately, our society has left common sense and accountability out of the equation. Anyone old enough for armed robbery is old enough for harsh reprisal, rehabilitation, or some combination appropriate to their behaviors.
  12. RRedline

    RRedline Veteran MMember

    I can't believe anyone would even attempt to place blame on anybody other than the boys and the parents. Are teachers supposed to eavesdrop on students' conversations and put hidden cameras and microphones all over the place? The blame game that so many play these days sickens me.
  13. yazdzik

    yazdzik Veteran Member

    Dear BDD,

    The idea that people bear ethical responsibility for their actions has vanished from our schools.

    You are, I believe, a reconstructionist. How many people do you know who will even bear responsibility for their tortfeasant driving of a motorcar? Or criminal operation of a car, for that matter?
    It is always someone else's error.
    I, at least, am perfect.

    How about a mechanic who offers to turn my rotors, even though they were slightly too thin? On a Mustang GT? Tort. Plain old fashioned, don't give a fuck tort. I prefer to chat with you, rather than have yo measure me, thanks.

    Until we as parents, educators, government officials, forum writers, and plain folks start believing in responsbility, our schools will be no different than our highways.

    People who commit crimes are criminals - age is traditionally an affirmative defence, not a statutory right. Sure, if someone can prove that he is too young to be morally responsible, let him so move teh court. Otherwise, he is, under any common law definition, a criminal.

    By nature, a civilised society holds criminals responsible for their crimes, the negligent responsible for their torts.

    Have we gone so far to hell that even that is held in question?

    (Don't answer - I am tired and I ache)

  14. Allene

    Allene Registered User

    BDD, I agree with you 1,000 percent!


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