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[Rant] Is liberalism a lost cause?

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by Techie2000, Nov 17, 2002.

  1. Techie2000

    Techie2000 The crowd would sing:

    (Moderator: Wasn't sure where exactly this would fit, so feel free to bounce it around until it finds a good home)

    It seems liberalism has become a lost cause. Rush and Bill's ratings are doing well, Ann Coulter has her popular book saying we control the media (even though you see a nice AOL Time Warner logo at end of CNN, and Microsoft blatently advertises its connections with NBC, and Fox is clearly swinging more on the conservative side of the tree, CBS doesn't seem to have its own news chnannel, just a network), the green party never wins, the Republicans now control the house and the senate, and every time I, a liberal, argues my case, it often feels like I am the only one doing so. Apparantly I'm a communist (taken from another board) because I want guns that are sold with the purpose of being used to kill another human being banned. Nancy Pelosi wants to be minority leader, and suddenly some people start going "Oh my God she's a liberal, from San Francisco even, run for your lives!" and yet the Republicans can pretty much just outvote everything they want. And don't forget those tree huggers. Those scary tree huggers. They want you to give up your big gas guzzling SUVs for cars that *gasp* get a higher MPG which not only will help reduce our demand for gas, but save you money because you'll be buying gas less often, and with this descresed demand, the "sacred" law of capitalism takes over and the gas prices go down, saving everyone (except the gas station people and our nice "friends" in the middle east) money. And don't forget those other bad things they're doing. They actually want the Earth to remain livable for years to come. Everyone knows that the economy is much more important. Besides the New Englanders and Canadians will probably thank us. I mean who doesn't like having Miami weather year round. The SPF 95 sunscreen and breathing masks are just minor inconviences. And if a few homes go under water because of melting ice caps, ah nothing that bad. They could just move farther inland, oh wait there are already tons of houses there!

    Oh yes there are a couple of issues which seem to be conflicting with the Republicans party normally conservative/libertarian ideology. First is that of abortion. Wouldn't most libertarians and conservatives not want the government to control people's rights to choose and make their own choices? Second is legalization. Not only have the Republicans ignored their ideology on this issue, but they haven't even thought of the buisness oppurtunities. I mean now we have a bigger hemp industry, meaning more jobs for the people. We need people to work the factories that make the cigarettes. New companies will be formed and compete to sell Marijuana.

    I don't know but it's a crazy world out there.
  2. bruzzes

    bruzzes Truthslayer

    You are so right

    Excellent post!

    You bring up an interesting subject that I hope gets discussed.
    Contrary to popular opinion, none of us can be labeled conservative or liberal in a complete sense.

    I have conservative leanings on many values and issues but retain many liberal views on selected topics.

    I wish I had more time to respond to your post, but the wife is feeling lonely and I have to shutdown the computer for some "quality time" with my spouse.

    When I return I hope to contribute to your topic.
  3. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    Drifting OT...

    For the record...

    ...as a guy who has owned all manner of weaponry in the past, including assault rifles...

    ...I'm on the side of the fence that would willingly ban them. Even though they're fun as heck, there's no sufficient application for them in civilian hands. Home defense? Maybe if you live in the woods and don't have to worry about a 5.56mm or 7.62mm round blasting through the invader...and the walls of your house.

    Where I live, I could definitely ice someone with my trusty Sig P220, but also run the risk of ending the life of the kid who lives next door.

    For this reason, I have two weapons available to me: an unchoked 870, and my SPAS 12, should the situation turn into a standup. :)

  4. drslash

    drslash It's all about the beer

    Is liberalism a lost cause? I would say no. Is liberalism badly in need of a strong, cedible, national advocate? Maybe so. While the Clintons are liked by the party faithful and to a large extent by the left, they have never struck me as strong core belief folks. In my cynical view, I see them as political oppurtunists that look for angles to make gains for their own power that are compatible with their general world view. George Bush, in my opinion, contrasts the Clintons with his apparent uncomprimising core beliefs that show through in his words and actions. I don't mean to make my response or this thread just a Bush vs. Clinton argument but, the way I see it, these people are the spokes people for their respective partys. As of now, more voting people in this country are sidiing with a right of center view. Can liberalism make a resurgence? Yes, given the right circumstances and the right people to come along and show leadership. If those people are driven by passion and justice and not by ego and political gamesmanship, there will be better days ahead for liberalism.
  5. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Techie, I think what you will find regarding the differences between liberals and conservatives starts with fundamental pessimism or optimism. Conservatives generally see things in a more positive light. For example, conservatives see opportunities while liberals generally see dire circumstances and general unfairness.

    Liberals genuinely despise individual success (except that of the leadership) as it is inherently unfair to people that either won't take responsibility for their lot in life or believe the liberal mantra that they cannot get anywhere without more government constantly re-levelling the playing field. Rich liberals are really closet aristocrats. They have theirs and they're going to keep it, yet they are certainly more than willing to toss a bone to "all the little people."

    Conservatives are far more inline with not limiting the freedoms we have in this country. Liberals would have our freedoms severely curtailed, all in the name of "it's for your own good".

    The SUV topic you mentioned is an excellent example. People want them, if they didn't the automakers wouldn't be producing them. Liberals, in a sense of 'for your own good' would have them banned and deny us freedom of choice. They cite a myriad of environmental issues, the first being global warming. No matter where one stands on the 'science' of global warming, the simple matter of fact is that all of the cars in the United States account for less than 4% of the CO2 released into the atmosphere annually. That 4% does not take into account the big oops in the science. Namely that the forest fires in Indonesia that burned down to the peat bogs released 40% of the carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere in a two year period. Given the scale, going after SUV's for CO2 emissions is tantamount to hunting ants with a howitzer.

    Of course there are exceptions to this...the homeland security bill with all the attendant snooping and tracking of American citizens is one and abortion another, but by far, the general philosophies of liberals and conservatives is generally that liberals want to interfere and deny personal freedoms and opportunities and conservatives want to preserve them. True liberals would love nothing more than to censor all avenues of free speech that does not agree with their point of view. Conservatives would preserve free speech, no matter how personally repugnant they may find certain points of view.

    Edit: From my perspective, yes it has always been a lost cause, but then again, I'm a libertarian ;)
  6. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Good thread, you guys. :thumbsup:
  7. jfcjrus

    jfcjrus Veteran Member

    Maybe folks are just plain tired of government (federal & state & local) taking such a very, very large chunk of their hard earned dollars and, again and again, PISSING it away.

    Sure, all the quests sound good - on paper.
    But, folks read in the papers, every day, about the waste. Billions upon billions of dollars.
    THROWING money at education for years - hasn't solved a thing.
    THROWING money at various countries to be our pals - some despot builds another summer home, while his people starve.
    THROWING money at the poor (welfare) without a good plan to help (& require) them to get on their own oneday.
    THROWING money at various questionable pet projects of elected officials, just so they'll scratch someone's back when the time comes.

    It's just plain not spending the money wisely, as many taxpayers have to do today.
    It pisses them off, even if they basically agree with the cause.
    Year after year, taxpayers have to cut back due to the economy, but the gov just keeps on trucking; tax revenues down, screw it, tax more.

    Some folks think the only purpose of a gov is to defend our shores, and stay out of our lives. Land of the free and all that.
    Well, where are we at now?
    The gov sure hasn't defended our shores very well.
    And they're butting into our lives more and more everyday.
    Maybe folks are tired of this inefficiency.

    Usually, liberal policies require more taxpayer money than conservative policies.
    I submit that the typical political retoric no longer flys.
    Folks want to know how their dollars will be well spent, before they vote for someone . No more political generalizations. They want specifics.

    We can debate individual issues until the cows come home, but perhaps folks today are just voting for the folks they think will PISS less of their money away than they suspect the other folks will.

    Just a rowdy thought.
    Flame away.

    (edit - fixed site spellcheck error)
  8. jamming

    jamming Banned

    Re: Drifting OT... (Continued)

    Both of those are Excellent Shotguns, "I love a SPAS 12 in the morning, it smells like Victory." With apologies to Apocolypse Now.
  9. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    I know I am. I know you and others here as well. But the people lost their power. I honestly do not think that anything will fix this short of some revolution.
  10. jamming

    jamming Banned

    Sorry Ethics, I cannot buy what you are selling. As a people we still have the most access to seek redress from our government than many almost any other country, except the Swiss System. However, the Swiss System works well for their relatively small yet diverse country. I have heard about how the system is broke from my youth, yet it goes chugging along. I talked to my Grandfather when I was younger and he told me about when heard about how his grandfather said people talked about it was broke in his day. That would of been the 1870's or so. Winston Churchill said it best, "Democracy is the worse form of government in the world, except for all the others."

    jfcjrus as to what Ethics quoted, I will point out that no government that has ever existed could protect you versus a committed terrorist 100% of the time. As to countries that do a better job protecting you, well they generally take away other freedoms as well. All balanced, our government does a pretty good job, not perfect by a long shot but we do seem to get the job done eventually. Lots of stumbling steps, but the government that governs best, governs least.
  11. RRedline

    RRedline Veteran MMember

    Interesting post Techie, even though I happen to disagree with much of it. For example, you say you are opposed to being able to legally purchase guns which are meant to kill other people. Well, I WANT my right to point a handgun that I legally purchase at anyone invading my home with the intent to kill or harm me or my family. While we may hold opposing opinions on this, neither of us is actually right or wrong. However, the Second Amendment to the Constitution says that we all have the right bear arms. If you are not happy with that, then you will soon have the opportunity to have a voice in politics via voting.

    You stated that republicans are in control right now as if that is unfair. Keep in mind that each and every one of those republicans was VOTED into office. What you see as being unfair, I see as being the will of the people. I often disagree with the will of the people, on abortion and separation of church and state, for example. However, I am free to VOTE. I am even free to run for many offices. I am free to bitch and moan when I don't like laws, and if you read many of my posts, you'll see that I exercise that right very often.

    You are not the only person in here who leans to the left. Ken is generally regarded as being very liberal, and even I am liberal on some issues. Perhaps once more people find these forums, there will be more of a balance. It does seem to lean slightly to the right in here.
  12. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    Re: Re: Drifting OT... (Continued)

    It's never jammed on me once, though I'm usually not a fan of Italian plastic.

  13. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Jim, you approach the issue with comparison to other countries. I do not. To compare is to constantly be happy because, as you point out, with comparison to other countries, we are well off.

    However, look inside our great country today. This forum, which is not an exclusion of microcasm, has many people who were laid off and unemployed. Is out government, be they Democrats or Republicans, doing anything about it?

    When the Fed lowered the rates 50 basis points, do you know why the Stocks tumbled even more, while the mainstream thought that the stocks would sky rocket? Because you can only try to fix one hole one way before it starts leaking in through other holes.

    The corruption of corporations was NOT addressed. The problem of economy was NOT addressed. Congress passed a law that would double the H1B work class VISA, so more people, especially those in the tech industry, can be even more displaced by cheap labor.

    So, tell me, what has Bush, and the current Congress done for the economy of the US? I understand terrorism is another issue but let's concentrate one issue at a time.
  14. jamming

    jamming Banned

    OK let me put it this way, there is unemployment growing which is to be expected in a recession. Corruption in Corporations is being addressed, however it will not be cured in one sitting of Congress. You haven't evidently experienced an America in a Market Slump, but I have I remember my Dad after he first left teaching and was working for a company and getting laided off, this happens in America and Dad went to work finding a new job in a more secure industry, it didn't pay as much at first but later after a few promotions and pay hikes Dad was back on track. We cannot expect for life to be like the tech bubble 90's always. That is what I think.
  15. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Never would compare nineties as ideal. I would say that I've seen the seventies, and even then it wasn't this bad, or was it?
  16. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    Yes, unemployment can be expected. Ethics asked a specific question and it remains unanswered. With millions of IT professionals unemployed in this country tell me who it helps to have more IT professionals from outside allowed in. Big Business, certainly not our own native born and trained IT professionals.
  17. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    Amen to that, brother! In 1999, I hired H-1B folks because I needed a level of expertise that I couldn't find otherwise. Now, if I were a hiring manager--and I'm not--I would find myself compelled to give an American a second look.

    Than and again, one of my failings is that I don't necessarily see things the same way as Corporate America.

    I didn't used to think Corporate America was intentionally malevolent, but now, I'm not so sure. :)

  18. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Welcome to Globalization. People thought I was nuts when I conditionally sided with the left on this issue. While the left does it because they believe third world countries will be 'victimized' by it, I've been opposed to and remain so because it is just one more attempt at levelling the playing field and effectively eliminating the middle class that has been the backbone of this country.
  19. jamming

    jamming Banned

    According to my Grandpa, my other Grandfather at least it wasn't the 1930's. He had about 4 main jobs in 10 years and about 6 other jobs that he worked to make ends meet for my Dad's Family. It was late into WW2 when he went to work for IGA when he finally settled into a job that would last him till he retired. You did what you could do for an honest wage, he told me.
  20. Jedi Writer

    Jedi Writer Guest

    Ah, come on Shiny, don't start with that racist elitist America should give priority to its own citizens first! Whats wrong with you? Diversity is the answer to everything--or is it education? I can never remember. Don't you realize that this country was built by immigrants a million years ago or something like that?

    One last thing. I agree with your post completely!

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