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Question on procedure...

Discussion in 'Society and Culture' started by cdw, Feb 25, 2018.

  1. cdw

    cdw Ahhhh...the good life.

    Ok. So, we have the shooting in the school in Florida. Everyone is all over the sheriffs, the guard at the school, which I thought was just part of the school, but since then I've learned he is a deputy from the Sheriffs' office.
    What exactly the procedure. Forget the "I was in the military, I would have gone in" stuff please. What is police procedure? Was the guy at the school's 'job' to call for assistance and create a perimeter? Was he supposed to wait for a tactical unit or whatever you call them..the ones with the protective gear and proper weapons? What, according to procedure of Sheriffs' departments, was he supposed to do, as well as the others that arrived?
    What is the "by the book" stuff that is in place...or is that different from one county to the next?

    Thanks. :)
    Allene likes this.
  2. Biker

    Biker Administrator Staff Member

  3. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

    The exact procedure will be different from agency to agency.

    Considering that many of these mass shootings are over with in under 4 minutes and the average LEO response time is 5 minutes, the old way of doing things was to "establish a perimeter" to prevent escape and wait for reinforcements.

    The new recommended procedure is to go in immediately, even if it's only 1 or 2 officers. Again, it depends on the procedures and training for each agency.

    Copz? BDD? How far off am I?
  4. Susan Addams

    Susan Addams Unregistered User

    My best guess is that we don't know enough of the details to knowledgeably discuss the correct procedure for a situation that we don't have enough information about. I'm sure that fine details of the situation affect what the best thing to do would be.

    But I'm with Mark. Not knowing the details I think the danger of more lives lost exceeds the danger of having the perpetrator get away. I think the focus would have to be on the victims and preventing more, even if there was just one officer.

    Not knowing police procedure I have no idea what the one officer would do upon encountering the perpetrator but my best guess would be to shoot the SOB in the head if he could get a clear shot with no innocents hurt by a missed shot.
  5. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

  6. cdw

    cdw Ahhhh...the good life.

    Thank ya... we need the men of blue to come on in and tell us. :)
  7. Susan Addams

    Susan Addams Unregistered User

    Sure they can. Mark, you are not taking into account the stunning lack of logic that the liberals exhibit. Liberals are living in a dream world. We conservatives live in the real world. That's why we have no common ground, that's why there is this huge gap between us with no possibility of compromise.

    You can't work with people who are not in touch with reality.
  8. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    I am not LE. I do not know their procedures but I would hope it would be to first notify dispatch shots fired at school and then proceed to enter school and try to locate shooter. It is not a slam dunk he could even find him. The shooter did move between floors and classrooms, then discarded his rifle and disappeared into the students.

    That said it is much easier to armchair quarterback than to enter a building where somebody is shooting and you are wearing a big target on your chest because you are in uniform. Let's say he found him on one end of a hall and the LE was on the other end. Other shooters here will tell you that is not a give me shot with a pistol and odds are a lot better for the guy with the rifle. Without having been through that, it is much too easy for us to call him a coward.

    I do think firing him was the right action. His job was to protect the kids and he failed to even try.
  9. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    You are painting with too wide a brush there. I consider myself liberal on most social issues BUT it can and does vary issue by issue. Many conservatives also hold some "liberal" views on some issues. Painting all liberals with one brush is neither logical or in touch with reality.

    I would distance myself from anybody who believes the only defense is to wait for the authorities. That is what is known as a target.
    Arc likes this.
  10. Susan Addams

    Susan Addams Unregistered User

    I didn't have time to write a treatise. I am a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. Leave it at that.
  11. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

    I posted on FB that I will never question the bravery of an LEO. I also said, "I don’t know why 4 deputies were outside and not in the school during the shooting. Orders, training or an attack of “common sense” are possibilities."

    I do not dare question and parse every decision someone makes in such a situation. The officer that shot Michael Brown in Ferguson, MO a couple years back was <30' from Brown and hit him an amazing six out of 15 shots. The officer was less than 2" from missing on the 4 shots that hit Brown in the arm. #5 caught Brown in the eye and ended him right there. #6 hit the top of his head as the body fell forward. The officer had also had a round go off inside his vehicle and had a cracked orbital bone in his face from Brown punching him, so he was dazed and disoriented before he pulled the trigger.

    (Colonel, I know you know, this is for the less informed) Pistols are short-ranged defensive weapons, your chance of hitting beyond 25 years without a firm rest and plenty of time to properly aim and squeeze the trigger is almost zero. Long guns are great for long ranges and become expensive clubs in close quarters. Maneuverability of a rifle also drastically drops indoors.

    I said credibly defend. They still will, because they do discount or deny the reality of certain things. For anyone who has reasoning ability and remembers this tragedy, it won't work.

    Which is why one of my favorite Marksims is "A Conservative is a Liberal who was mugged."
  12. cdw

    cdw Ahhhh...the good life.

    From their facebook page, the same day as this article, but at 7PM... "Clarification on Unofficial Statements about MSD Law Enforcement Response - The Coral Springs Police Department is aware of media reports published regarding Broward Sheriff’s Deputies who responded to the tragic shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School on February 14, 2018. The Coral Springs Police Department has not made any official statements to media regarding these allegations as it is still an open and active investigation being handled by the Broward Sheriff’sOffice. Our police department has continued to work alongside the Broward Sheriff’s Office to assist in any investigation pertaining to this incident. The Coral Springs Police Department has a tremendous working relationship with the men and women of the Broward Sheriff's Office, and while we are being transparent through this investigation, everyone should respect the process. There were countless deputies and officers who responded on that fateful day from multiple jurisdictions, whose actions were nothing short of heroic. As already reported, any action or inaction that negatively affected the response will be investigated thoroughly, and the information will be released officially from the proper agency spokesperson."
    Strange thing for me...anywhere I went in Florida they were called Sheriffs. I have no clue what the difference, if any, would be between Sheriffs and Police Dept. Grew up in NY, they were all police. Weird.
  13. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    In Pensacola the city LE are police and the country LE are sheriffs.
    cdw likes this.
  14. cdw

    cdw Ahhhh...the good life.

    Ok. Regardless of procedure... This just does me in...
  15. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

    Same in Memphis/Shelby County. Sheriffs patrol unincorporated parts of the county and towns that do not have their own police force. Police are specific to their town/city, however can freely chase across city/county lines for pursuit. They also respond for officer/deputy calls for assistance/help.
  16. SixofNine

    SixofNine Jedi Sage Staff Member

    That's probably the rule rather than the exception throughout the country, at least what I've seen in my travels, including work on a criminal justice information system in Milwaukee County many years ago (plus, the TV show Cops is very educational in this regard :) ). The few incorporated towns in my county have police forces, while the Sheriff is the primary law enforcement agency in all of the unincorporated parts.

    Two interesting exceptions in my neck of the woods are Arlington and Fairfax Counties in northern Virginia. Their incorporated towns (e.g., Alexandria) follow the pattern of having their own city police forces, but the the counties are so densely populated with many unicorporated areas that they have county police departments as well as county Sheriff's departments (who perform the usual Sheriff's duty of running their respective counties' detention facilities). This pattern probably exists anywhere there's a densely populated county with relatively large unincorporated areas.
  17. Allene

    Allene Registered User

    That's how it works in Idaho too.
  18. cdw

    cdw Ahhhh...the good life.

    Well...we got no men in blue to answer us regarding the procedural aspects of this whole incident.
  19. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel by his words, many general department policies set by him, and the policies that led to the conduct of his deputies that arrived on scene and followed his policies demonstrate in legal and law enforcement terms that the man has his head up his ass.
    dsl987 and MemphisMark like this.
  20. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

    Hey! I need a 10X like button over here!

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