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Proving we hold the moral high ground...

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by -Ken, Dec 26, 2002.

  1. -Ken

    -Ken Guest

    The liberal media is reporting that we aren't treating suspected Al Qaeda terrorists with all the comforts of home. In fact, being killed is probably preferable to being taken prisoner.

    You can read about how noble we are being here.

    This holiday reminder brought to you by reality.
     
  2. Stiofan

    Stiofan Master Po

    And your point is?

    These people were training to murder innocents. I haven't much compassion for them. I'm reserving it for those who have been maimed and slaughtered by these thugs.
     
  3. Ravenink

    Ravenink Veteran Member

    I suspect, offering waffle house chocolate pie is not a good method of getting prisoners to talk. Barring that, one must do what one must in an interrogation situation.
     
  4. -Ken

    -Ken Guest

    <small>As said by InsAgt,</small>
    "I haven't much compassion for them."

    I believe you misunderstood my comments.
    If we are going to officially say "The U.S. government publicly denounces the use of torture." we should live up to it. I have no problem with you saying what you said, it is honest and defensible.

    I take great exception of our government telling outright lies (especially when they are an insult to everyone's intelligence).

    Either we have the fortitude to stand up and admit what were doing and why or we don't. Lying is not an option.

    One final point - I know about it, you know about it, my guess is the entire Arab world knows about it also. Can you think of any ways that this might help the terrorists recruit more terrorists? I can.
     
  5. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    I don't even think it's lying. The stress and duress tactics are a gray area that can be argued. As to the actual major league torture, most of that is being exported to Jordan as they are the Value Added Supplier of choice for this kind of activity. Lying may be too strong a word here....opportunistic is probably more appropos. Either way, it werks fer me.
     
  6. -Ken

    -Ken Guest

    You don't find that hypocritical?
    We stand up, beat our chest, proudly proclaim we would never use torture and then <strike>not so</strike> secretly ship them to Jordan for torture? How can we honestly look anyone in the face and claim we are the good guys? Or isn't that important anymore?

    Might "werk" for you but it somewhat disgusts me.
    Is there no understanding of what is right anymore?
    Where do we get the nerve to claim the "moral high ground"?
     
  7. mikepd

    mikepd Veteran Member

    'Standing or kneeling for hours'...

    before or after we beat them near senseless after a starvation diet? I mean if you want torture then lets go back to the Hanoi Hilton and places like that for some good examples of torture. If all they had to be was extremely uncomfortable then I respectfully suggest you do not try to impose how you would feel in the same situation on them. They come from a harsh background, have proclaimed their intent to kill as many Americans whenever possible and do not need you feeling sorry for their hurt egos.

    One is entitled to one's views. One can choose to be anywhere on a straight line. Far left, center, far right or anywhere else.

    As far as recruiting goes, real world? Giving them 5 star treatment won't change a damn thing.
     
  8. Ravenink

    Ravenink Veteran Member

    ah, but you see we don't use torture. The prisoners are given more than enough chance to capitulate. Failing that, some MAY be handed off to governments with more effective interrogation methods. Half the time probably the realistic threat of torture from those governments gets these people talking. If the worst the US can do to them is make them kneel for hours, then I would say that I recieved worse treatment from every martial arts instructor I ever dealt with and still apparently do inhumane things to my students.
     
  9. -Ken

    -Ken Guest

    To my simplified way of thinking, there is a right and wrong way to conduct oneself in life. I do not demand the world conforms to my concept of morality (even though I do think we would all be better off if we did) but there is certainly higher authority we need to look at.

    Take Nuremberg. There was a decision to hold everyone responsible for their actions even if they were ordered to take the wrongful action by a superior officer. If we are knowingly turning people over to be tortured, we are doing wrong - by our own definition.

    Either we live by our own rules or we don't.
    Hey, torture might be handy on suspects too!
    Our tax money goes to torturing people?
    I really don't think that should be happening.
    I am having trouble believing anybody would advocate our use of torture. We didn't like it in Vietnam, we shouldn't allow it to happen when we are in control. I can't see how anyone could defend this.
     
  10. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Well first off, I haven't seen much chest beating concerning this. Secondly, I'm firmly of the opinion that with respects to al qaeda, the gulf between indiscretions is substantial.

    From the outset, I assumed that there were some abuses of prisoners. Not that I am in complete agreement with it...perhaps just a bit more cynical. The first casualty of war is the truth, and I would submit that the second is the rigidity of the 'rules'.

    Assuming there is some useful information gained from the activities, how many of your fellow American civilians are you willing to sacrifice in order to stop it? How many here that post on this board would you be willing to have dead tomorrow if there was valuable information to be gained and wasn't because we stopped sending captured al qaeda to Jordan?
     
  11. mikepd

    mikepd Veteran Member

    Defend severe physical discomfort? Due to my medical problems there are days when I live with it and for a lot more than a few hours even with my medications.

    Try it sometime. Kneel for several hours and try not to move. You will then feel like I do when my body is in extreme muscle spasm. I have meds that will make the average druggie *drool*. Guess what? When I'm that bad, they don' cut it. I know *all* about pain. You want me to feel sorry for these people who willingly took up arms against us? Sorry, no sale.

    I cannot believe you don't see the difference between this and what went on in Vietnam.

    Simplified thinking? That about sums it up. Welcome to the real world.

    If this helps save more American lives, I'll gladly pay *your* tax share.
     
  12. -Ken

    -Ken Guest

    Coot,

    Let me see if I correctly understood your question.

    Are you asking me if it would be ok for our country to violate everything I believe in and hold dear as our national morality for the possibility of some information?

    Kind of gives a new meaning to our country doesn't it?
    Could this be what some of the Arabs are complaining about?
    Are we really as evil as they say but the truth just doesn't make it here? Are you suggesting we teach our children torture is ok if we don't do it ourselves? Is this the example we should set?

    What the hell use is it to save a country for our children that believes rape is ok in prisons and torture is ok as long as it isn't done on our soil?

    Is this the true definition of morally bankrupt?
    Or, does the end justify the means?
    Why do we keep fighting that war?
     
  13. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    No Ken, I don't think you got the gist of the question...let me repeat it.
    I'm just curious to know if there is some number of civilian casualties attached to this above which this sense of moral indignation would go out the window.

    Would say stopping the detonation of a tactical nuke in a metropolitan area be the line?
     
  14. cdw

    cdw Ahhhh...the good life.

    Very simplified, imo. And to compare making someone stand in an uncomfortable position or being deprived of sleep for 24 hrs to the war crimes and systematic killing of millions of people which is what the trials at Nuremberg was all about, is not only simplified but erroneous.
    I don't know about you, but I've known for quite some time that there were certain prisoners that were sent to countries that had much more harsh ways of dealing with such matters, or, we left them in the countries that they were captured for that very reason. It's been publicized and admitted a few times.
    There are many ugly things that happen in the real world, the underground "spy" world, the war world that I have never had to personally deal with. And quite frankly, my hat is off to those that do.
    I wouldn't shoot someone either, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't appreciate the people that manage to pop OBL or anyone else that is organizing the type of groups that practice the terror that has been perpetrated on the world as of late.



    Just a country bumpkin point of view.
    :)
     
  15. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    Personally, I have a problem with the US handing the suspects over for toture. The reason is simply an issue of complicity.

    Al Capone didn't commit all those murders. His henchmen did. We didn't do the torture. Our henchmen did.

    You cannot absolve yourself of something you have the power to stop by simply not playing. If we're going to hand them over to be tortured, why don't we just do it ourselves? Too pretty to get our hands dirty?
     
  16. Biker

    Biker Administrator Staff Member

    I suspect that once we, ourselves, started down that road, we'd find far too many that enjoyed the work and would quickly get out of hand.

    I have mixed feelings over the issue. Is it necessary? Ummmmmmmmm, uh huh.. I think so. Do we want to create a whole "secret" section that does this type of work? I don't think so. Things like that tend to grow into something that is difficult, if not impossible to control.
     
  17. jamming

    jamming Banned

    Actually the doctrine is to create stress points without physical injury, in many cases it can be more effective than actual torture because torture creates physical pain that can be a focus of resentment and counter productive to gathering quality intelligence.

    This is severe physical and mental hardship, but it is not torture. How do I know this that is where my physical and mental ailments come from being interrogted by Soviet Trained Yemini's, who probably taught the Soviet's a thing or two. I spent a whole lifetime in around two and a half days, in their hands.

    I only got a small hurried introduction to the long course that our POW's in Vietnam suffered through, it could of been much longer. It would of been, if it were not for the US Marine traveling back to the Consulate at the time that I was leaving the Country going the other way and detained. I suffered some Kidney Damage and I still have nightmares from what they did and some other things like losing my best friend in the world in Africa. The Smothering treatments are the worse, its better when they only beat you down.

    I have a place on my arm today that still shows the scars that wouldn't heal. What they are being treated to is not a walk in the park Ken, but it is not torture by any stretch of the imagination.

    As to turning over suspects to other countries, we do not do that to change jurisdictions, if a country has a legitimate request for a particular prisoner we turn them over, just as they do for us when we have an interest, its reciprocity of requests. Do we ignore the information they gather, no but intelligence by torture is not usually significant, because after a while they tell you whatever you want to hear. We don't throw away what is told to us, but it is considered less reliable than the carrot and physical discomfort method.
     
  18. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Let me point out a small, but important detail. The country is Jordan, not Syria, not Egypt, and certainly not Iran or Iraq. While Jordan has miles to go in their human rights issues, Jordan is still better than many Muslim countries that these prisoners can wind up in.
     
  19. -Ken

    -Ken Guest

    Coot,

    So because somebody somewhere theorized that several million might be nuked, we should allow the wholesale torture of people? Wow, no kidding. But why stop there? Isn't the same logic applicable to the entire Muslim world? What the heck, why don't we start at one end and torture every single last one of them? You can be assured we'll find somebody who knows something!

    What about the drug cartels? Lets just torture anybody we can find who speaks Spanish. What about North Korea? And the Chinese, why are they exempt? I understand they stole nuclear secrets. They have a nuclear program, which must certainly violate some agreement or another. And you can also be assured they have a secret biological program. Now, lets be fair, lets include everybody who qualifies!

    And can you imagine, I forgot Timothy McVeigh! Ok then, would every right wing male who is upset with their government, please report to the airport, you're plane to Jordan is waiting. I'm sure we can get that list from Mr. Poindexter's TIA database. Hmmm, would any of us show up on that list Coot? How many of your friends who speak so openly here are you willing to risk? The danger is more likely to be from the "patriots" on our side rather than the lunatics on theirs.

    Hey Cyd,

    For a country bumpkin, you seem to understand that we are only causing them "discomfort" while we say we do not condone the use of torture. Of course, all the while we are loading people onto transport to be sent to be tortured by our friends. I'm looking forward to you explaining to me how the Vichy French were completely innocent as they loaded Jews into freight cars (only causing discomfort) and really didn't harm anyone themselves.

    Jamming,

    I don't even know what to say. I would think you would be one of the first in joining me in calling for the immediate lifetime incarceration of every last despicable deviant who performs this type of "information extraction" starting right this minute.

    Thank you Copzilla, I was starting to believe I was the only person here who understood the idea of complicity. You did an excellent job of explaining it.
     
  20. jamming

    jamming Banned

    I would of loved to only be treated as these guys are -Ken, that is not torture.

    Torture is when they get a sack of close knit material and soak it with water and put it on your head. You cannot get the air to go through the wet bag and you are suffocating till you pass out and eventually die unless they remove the bag. Torture is having direct current applied to your body parts. Torture is having a cigar placed on the area behind your wrist on the back of your forearm. Torture is not what is happening to them. Physical discomfort is not Torture in and of itself.

    BTW I went through a period where I smoked large fat cigars, just to prove that it wasn't the item, it was the person's intent that caused me harm.
     

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