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Protestors Take To The Streets!

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by Sierra Mike, Jan 17, 2003.

  1. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    Er...America's own weapons of mass destruction? We're building more of them? We might be modernizing nuke delivery vehicles, maybe, but it's not like we're adding more missiles to the arsenal of democracy.

    Anyway, read about the protests and potential mass disrobings of ugly people at Protestors Against War To Take To The Streets

    While I'm obviously in accordance with the buildup of strength around Iraq and the need for regime change and stabilization of Iraq in general, I am aware that the Bush Administration is doing a pretty piss-poor job of answering the questions posed by John Q. Public (I will of course dimiss that trash-talking leftist guerrilla, COL David H. HACKworth, because he has an agenda of his own). I would like a functional PowerPoint presentation spelling out the real world situ with Iraq, but I know I ain't gonna get it, and besides which, I know Saddam and his hombres have been overdue for the long dirt nap for ten years now.

    Of course, if I were to find some sort of building-block presentation on it, the liberal left would blast it to smithereens as "propaganda." Then they'd ask if the US is so hot, why aren't we also taking out North Korea? My major problem with a lot of these folks is they don't understand reality; sometimes, there are no good/bad, black-and-white answers. They went out of the window with Lucille Ball and Desi Arnez.

    SM (who wonders if our own dearly-departed liberal will finally get the chance to score a true drama queen turn on national TV somewhere)
     
  2. IamZed

    IamZed ...

    The South Korea thing said the most to me. I recently read that we had so stop Sadam before he became South Korea. Huh?
     
  3. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

  4. IamZed

    IamZed ...

    I compose for myself. Sorry.
    I believe that the present demand to stop Sadam is to prevent him from graduating to more deadly WOMD.
    When Korea comes up they top this hack by a light year.
    Our reason to stop Sadam is to prevent him from becoming a Korea?
    We attack for what. That was not a question.
     
  5. pupowski

    pupowski Banned

    I think the administration is doing a piss-poor job at a lot of things, such as honoring the oath to protect and defend the US Constitution. Bush foreign policy is a three ring circus, short on statesmanship, coherent strategies, consistency, and credibility. The axis of incompetence North Korea policy is a good example. One day they take a hard line, no talks, no aid, and "no rewarding bad behaviors". A few days later, Bush caves in to PRNK blackmail , requesting talks, offering food, energy, and economic aid, and re-assurances of no pre-emptive attacks. That is appeasement, and a blow to US prestige and credibility. Such flip-flops may cost us dearly in the long run.


    It takes a healthy dose of denial to dismiss the anti-war protestors as peace-niks and the out of touch liberal left Steve. To be sure, those elements have a presence, but mainstream America has a much greater one. Many have never considered marching in protest against their government until now, and have little use for the freakizoid left. I've never marched before either, but I may in the near future. If Bush orders a pre-emptive attack, you can count on it. These are the patriots, not the jingoist armchair warriors, administration chicken-hawks, or the draft-dodging opportunists in Congress. I think you are way off base with your assessment of the protestors, and the case for war with Iraq. Korea is a far greater threat in my view, so is Pakistan.

    The military mindset needs reality checks too , as does the White House. The war machine can fight wars and spend money, but it can't run a Democracy . Our founding father's knew that, and structured government accordingly. So did President Eisenhower, when he warned us against dangers of the military industrial complex. Too bad America didn't listen, because the MIC is a much greater threat today. I keep a copy on my wall to remind me that eternal vigilence is essential to Democracy.
    http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html

    To assess at America's needs realisticly, one needs to consider the balancing factors between protection, agression, peace, prosperity, and our Constitution and Bill of rights. Ike was good at it, Bush isn't. That line about seeing things as good/bad or black/ white , applies to the "with us or against us" right-wing as well .
     
  6. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    You are entitled to your opinion and you make some good points in that protesters can be as patriotic as anybody. I would submit that your use of the title Patriot is every bit as wrong as those who would call protesters unpatriotic because they protest. Many who think it is time to do something about Saddam are also Patriots.
     
  7. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Passed Away Aug. 19, 2006

    Steve:

    Why are you assuming that only ugly people will be disrobing? As I recall the demos of the 1960s-70s there were some quite attractive young ladies participating -- and occasionally disrobing. If not in public, then in private once you spirited them away with the offer of some good weed. :)
     
  8. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    Pup,

    Well, I'm not in complete and total disagreement with you, but when I see signs such as NO WAR FOR OIL or AMERICA IS GUILTY OF WAR CRIMES as I did on TV this afternoon, then I'm sorry, I have deep-seated grievances against those folks who do not understand some of the basic things in life. It ain't about oil (we coulda taken those fields in 1991 with 0 opposition) and America is not committing war crimes by replacing the Hussein Regime--as a matter of fact, allowing that regime to STAY in power is probably more horrendous than excising it.

    Robaire,

    Well, I haven't SEEN any hotties out there yet, but I do hold hope for that. :)

    SM
     
  9. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    Yeah, and it's the same people. rofl
     
  10. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Once more proving Einstein was right...everything's relative ;)
     
  11. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Passed Away Aug. 19, 2006

    Maybe it is the same people, and I am sure they have aged a bit -- but so have I, so I make allowances.
     
  12. pupowski

    pupowski Banned

    I'll concede those points shiny, my mistake. I should have qualified one statement and re-phrased the other. By the way, I'm 100% in agreement with your statement about campaign financing. It is a national disgrace that corrupts the political process and undermines our democracy.
     
  13. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Passed Away Aug. 19, 2006

    Here's a funny column by Zev Chafets describing the big rally. Apparently no disrobing, though, either of ugly or non-ugly people.

    I do not know how really accurate he is here, since he is pretty much of a hawk, but it sounds about right. At any event, it is both patehtic and funny.

    Excerpt:

    A peace movement
    that's going nowhere

    'A broad cross-section of America." That's how National Public Radio's reporter described the anti-war protesters who converged Saturday on the Mall in Washington.

    The New York Times agreed. Its editorial page called the gathering "impressive for the obvious mainstream roots of the marchers."

    I watched the march on C-SPAN, and I saw a different event - a thin crowd of cold white people cheering on an assortment of America-hating radicals, second-rate demagogues and plain weirdos.

    The rally was kicked off by a Native American activist, Moonanum James, who set the day's tone by accusing the U.S. of genocide and ended his oration with this exhortation: "In the spirit of Crazy Horse, no more war!" (I'm not making that up.)

    James was one of 11 speakers from the rally's organizing group, ANSWER - Act Now to Stop War & End Racism. ANSWER is intimately connected with the Workers of the World Party, an outfit that is, according to David Corn of the hard-left The Nation magazine, a "small, revolutionary-Socialist sect." Is there anyone on Earth more maliciously stupid than a revolutionary Socialist?

    Other featured speakers included the Revs. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, former Georgia Rep. Cynthia McKinney, ex-U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark, Ron ("Born on the Fourth of July") Kovic, two silly actresses, a few folk singers and a very distressed British member of Parliament, Jeremy Corbyn

    Full column at: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/col/story/53544p-50171c.html
     
  14. pupowski

    pupowski Banned

    I harbor lingering resentment of the same element since Vietnam. This is different mix than the Vietnam and Gulf war protestors, more mainstream. The ones I spoke with in Portland, San Francisco, DC, and New York didn't seem to be anti-military, anti-American, or pacifists, just regular folks real concerned about where we are headed as a nation.

    American personel have admitted to committing war crimes under this administration, and oil is undoubtedly a major factor in Iraq. I don't like those signs either, but it's true, and I like that even less. Sending prisoners to allies for torture is legally no different than doing it ourselves. Our "war on drugs" in Columbia has poisened streams and villages with de-foliants . We have provided supplies, intellligence, manpower and technical support for a military and paramilitary known for mass murder of civilians and other attrocities. Many so-called "war crimes" are mis-characterizations, propoganda, or the unavoidable collateral damage inherent to a combat environment. Others are real, and the increasing use of mercenaries, ruthless warlords, and extra-judicial covert ops makes them more likely A pre-emptive invasion of Iraq with neither gross provocation, clear and present danger, nor UN approval is a crime in and of itself.

    I never imagined a time when the US would flagrantly violate the Geneva convention, torture prisoners, operate concentration camps , refuse to allow human rights monitors, and assert the right to imprison US citizens and non-citizens indefinitely, without charges, legal representation, notice to their families, or judicial oversight. But that time is now, and I don't like where we are headed as a country under this neo- fascist administration(see footnote).

    Our civilian justice system and prisons are guilty of gross human rights violations. Our prison population has doubled over the past 20 years. We now imprison or execute a greater % of our citizens than all but a few of the most repressive nations on earth. Mr. Bush has a particularly dismal record for human rights. During his last year Governor, Texas executed more people than the other 49 states combined, more than any other governor in US history, and more than all but a few countries. Texas is widely acknowledged to have the worst legal system for capital crime defendents. Texas executes mentally retarded and underage offenders The clemency board never meets to consider appeals, either in person or electronicly, and 25% of the lawyers hired for death sentence appeals were subsequently dis-barred. Bush has never commuted a death sentence or delayed an execution.

    The United States has been accused of having one of , if not the the worst human rights record on Earth. That certainly isn't true on our soil, or with our military in uniform, but, overall, our record leaves a lot to be desired.


    http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/12/us1227.htm
    http://hrw.org/press/2003/01/wr2003.htm
    http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/05/icc0506.htm
    http://www.deoxy.org/wc/warcrime.htm

    (1). Fascism is corporatism, a union of industry and government that subordinates the rights of individuals to to a pursuit of empire. Sound familiar? It should, because the plan Pearle and Wolfowitz wrote for DPI and presented to Israel didn't stop with Iraq. Ashcroft's policies and the sanitized output of the corporate news media are probably co-incidental, but the gestalt of our current political scenario concerns me. The presidents grandfather Prescott Bush, was a nazi collaborator, whose actions "bordered on treason" according to former US President Harry Truman. He was the Nazi party's private banker before Hitler took control, and supplied fuel, chemicals, and ships to Germany during wartime. In 1942 the US Government seized three of his corporations and indicted Bush for trading with the enemy. Bush, as director of Brown Brothers , was one of the most influential men on Wall Street in the 1930's. In the mid 1930's, a wall street trader asked US General Smedley Butler to join a right wing coup, but he informed Roosevelt instead. And what does this have to do with GWB..............???? I don't know, but it's interesting


    Prescott Bush and other key figures in trade with fascist Germany later moved their families to Texas, where they became involved in the oil industry, among others, and politics. Much of the money that bailed out George W. Bush from his failed business ventures and financed his Texas Rangers windfall can be linked to members or associates of the same families
     
  15. pupowski

    pupowski Banned

    I don't know Zev Charles, and I didn't see the event, but New York City is a bastion of Judaism, and the Israeli right wing wants this war. The plan was originally written by Pearle and Wolfowitz for Israel, not the US. By pointing toward discredited public figures the "spin" de-values, and mis-characterizes the rest of the crowd. I was in NY and DC prior demonstrations, and I saw what the NY Times saw, a mostly mainstream crowd. I suggest you take a look yourself, because the New York Daily News is better suited for wrapping fish or lining trash cans, than discerning the truth about current events
     
  16. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Oil this and oil that. Even if it were a REASON, some things are right to do, even if Big Oil benefits.

    Regime change is the prize. Regime transformation in Iraq could make a valuable contribution to the war on terrorism, whether Saddam is ousted or enticed into exile.

    Why? Because what really threatens open, Western, liberal societies today is not Saddam and his weapons per se. He is a twisted dictator who is deterrable through conventional means. Because Saddam loves life more than he hates us. What threatens Western societies today are not the deterrables, like Saddam, but the undeterrables the boys who did 9/11, who hate us more than they love life. It's these human missiles of mass destruction that could really destroy our open society.

    So then the question is: What is the cement mixer that is churning out these undeterrables these angry, humiliated and often unemployed Muslim youth? That cement mixer is a collection of faltering Arab states, which, as the U.N.'s Arab Human Development Report noted, have fallen so far behind the world their combined G.D.P. does not equal that of Spain. And the reason they have fallen behind can be traced to their lack of three things: freedom, modern education and women's empowerment.

    If we don't help transform these Arab states which are also experiencing population explosions to create better governance, to build more open and productive economies, to empower their women and to develop responsible media that won't blame all their ills on others, we will never begin to see the political, educational and religious reformations they need to shrink their output of undeterrables.

    We have partners. Trust me, there is a part of every young Arab today that recoils at the idea of a U.S. invasion of Iraq, because of its colonial overtones. But there is a part of many young Arabs today that prays the U.S. will not only oust Saddam but all other Arab leaders as well.

    It is not unreasonable to believe that if the U.S. removed Saddam and helped Iraqis build not an overnight democracy but a more accountable, progressive and democratizing regime, it would have a positive, transforming effect on the entire Arab world a region desperately in need of a progressive model that works.

    And liberals need to take heed. Just by mobilizing for war against Iraq, the U.S. has sent this region a powerful message: We will not leave you alone anymore to play with matches, because the last time you did, we got burned. Just the threat of a U.S. attack has already prompted Hezbollah to be on its best behavior in Lebanon (for fear of being next). And it has spurred Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Abdullah to introduce a proposal to his fellow Arab leaders for an "Arab Charter" of political and economic reform.

    Let me sum up my argument with two of my favorite sayings. The first is by Harvard's president, Lawrence Summers, who says: "In the history of the world, no one has ever washed a rented car." It is true of countries as well. Until the Arab peoples are given a real ownership stake in their countries a real voice in how they are run they will never wash them, never improve them as they should.

    The second is an American Indian saying "If we don't turn around now, we just may get where we're going." The Arab world has been digging itself into a hole for a long time. If our generation simply helps it stop digging, possibly our grandchildren and its own will reap the benefits.

    But if we don't help the Arabs turn around now, they just may get where they're going a dead end where they will produce more and more undeterrables.

    This is something liberals should care about because liberating the captive peoples of the Mideast is a virtue in itself and because in today's globalized world, if you don't visit a bad neighborhood, it will visit you.

    A quote from Thomas Friedman a columnist for the NY Times and someone I respect when it comes to the knowledge of Middle East and its politics.
     

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