Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by ethics, Feb 23, 2011.
Certainly oilfield (just look the original source).
Sorry for my weak skills in english
And yet, they are two quite different countries, with their own society, government, politics, even religions (or lack thereof).
Quotes from Putin on events in Libya:
"Libya has the biggest oil resources in Africa and the fourth largest gas resources. It raises the question: might it be the main object of interest to those operating there?"
"They said they didn't want to kill Gaddafi. Now some officials say, yes, we are trying to kill Gaddafi. Who permitted this, was there any trial? Who took on the right to execute this man, no matter who he is?"
"The country's whole infrastructure is being destroyed, and in essence one of the warring sides is attacking under the cover of aircraft."
"When the entire so-called civilised community falls upon a small country with all its might, destroys infrastructure created over generations -- I don't know, is that good or not? I don't like it."
"Look at a map of this region of the world ... What, is it full of Danish-style democracies? No, there are monarchical states all around. This overall answers to the mentality of the population and the practices that developed there."
"Is there a lack of crooked regimes in the world? What, are we going to intervene in internal conflicts everywhere? Look at Africa, what's been happening in Somalia for many years. Are we going to bomb everywhere and conduct missile strikes?"
"Why strike palaces? What, are they exterminating mice this way? Surely people are being killed in these strikes -- Gaddafi is not there, he slipped away long ago, but peaceful civilians are dying."
I will be much surprised if anyone who hold the keys to war will explain his pragmatic (not ideallistic) reason of his actions.
There were just a quotes of mind makers, some opinions of people who has(had) direct attitude to your economics and politics.
I don't consider them to be absolute truth or evidence of anything, they are mostly the reasons to think a little.
What about Dr. Paul Craig Roberts?
Is former assistant secretary of US Treasury also "wrong about everything"?
Time will show if he's right about Syria.
Oh my Lord! The guy is a crackpot! "Iran is not a puppet of western colonialists"... LOL!
Gaddafi is dead, democracy is here:
Médecins Sans Frontières quits prisons in Libya city over "torture".
Well, you know, Gaddafi's only been dead for a couple months, it's going to take some time for them to move away from the Soviet style tactics they've used for the last half century.
I admire your ability to see ghost of communism everywhere
I don't know tactics you are speaking about. Soviets were atheists but you support religion fanatics like Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Syria, Lybia, Tunisia and other countries, you encourage their protest movements against their temporal (in common) governments, your politicians (like senator John Kerry) have official meetings with them.
So, go on. Grow next bin Laden for yourself.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" is very unsteady principle.
Oh, you think a couple months of anarchy out of a country that had a rebellion that was barely supported by the US is cause to demonize the US, eh? That's an original approach for you Andrey; I'm shocked I tell you.
Nobody in the US has illusions of modern day Libya being our friend. It's much the same as modern day Russia; meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Poison any journalists lately?
Naive. That's all I need to call the above because nothing else fits it. Perhaps naiveté licked with vindictiveness.
But actually I know no poisoned journalists in Russia, neither lately, nor long time ago.
I could say the same about EVERY POST YOU MAKE, douchebag. So go fuck yourself.
And yes, I know I just broke the rules, mods. Don't care.
Andrey, in reality I can't really understand what your point really is.
Usually I understand what your points are whether I agree or disagree. But in the case of this thread I wasn't sure where you were going when you started out with your first posts in this thread and then some of your follow up threads seem to be about a different perspective or topics. Now you are in a running gun battle with some other members over personal issues between you and they.
Care to try and start over by adding a single post that kind of sums up what your postion or points are you would like to make on what your original or main topic is?
His first post yesterday was a troll post dig at the US for being involved (even in a minor capacity) with the ouster and ultimate killing of Gaddafi. It basically said "You were involved, now everything bad that happens is your fault, from here to eternity." Much like his insinuation that we created Bin Laden, as if by supporting someone at one point in time means that we are responsible for every terrible thing they do from there on out.
It's stock standard political bullshit by a Russian supremacist, who is only allowed to remain here so that members can see how political propaganda operates in that half of the globe.
I'll explain my point:
Actually, I don't like hypocrisy.
I can accept it in official declarations, cause it's essential part of any pragmatic politics, realpolitik.
But I can't understand it in public discussions like this forum.
If you suffered from 9/11, if you fight with terrorism in whole planet, why does your country have this relations with Muslim Brothers?
Why do you support revolutions of religion fanatics against temporal authoritarian governments? Do you realy consider them to be better?
Have your interventions in Iraq, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Grenada and many other countries been done according to your geopolitical and economical interests or just "to make the World a better place"?
You officialy and in this forum declare that second option as primary.
Ok, what do I see in reality?
Two simple examples from the real world:
According to UN data after your Afghanistan's invasion and operation Enduring Freedom the production of opium in Afghanistan has grown in 37 times!
From 185 tons in 2000 to over 7000 tons in 2003.
I remind you that Russia has supported that operation and provided you with airfields in ex-USSR middle Asia countries and our airspace for you transports.
But what do we have in exchange? Large drug-traffic and cheaper dopes. Our regions (esp. Siberia and Ural) suffer from heroin, if we gather all russian drug-addicted people, it will be the population of large industrial city like Voronezh. But you have recognized Afghanistan's drugs as serious problem only 1 or 2 years ago. In 2003 that 7000 tons in Afghanistan were ok, weren't them? Are you blind?
The second example: the Egypt. It was one of the most popular holidays places in Europe. Germanian, Italian, Russian people liked to spend their vacations there.
What we have now after that revolution you have greeted?
Victims, ransacked museums, unstability (now they speak about next Egypt revolution) and more radical islamist state, which forbids female foreign tourists to wear swimsuits and impose the rules of their religion to all other nations.
I see hipocrisy in difference betwwen what have been said in press or this forum and what happens in real world.
We do? This is news to us. Can you show me where we have this relation? <br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-family: arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">
Where ever you are getting your information, it's pretty wrong. If anything, and not just Libya, the whole "spring" has been hijacked by the fringe, that being Islamists. There's even books on this already. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0230338194/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=wwwviolentkicom&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0230338194
I admit that sometimes I am naive in to thinking we are doing something for the better cause but I am under no pretense that the underlying factor is always whatever is better for this country. Just like today's Russia blocking the UN vote on Syria. They are not making it better for people in Syria to live (because let's face it, under Assad or not, Syria is still shit and Russia likes the entire Middle East to be that way for their own reasons). I believe this is the MO for every country.
The difference is the symptomatic fall from the primary objective and the timing. Throwing off Mubarak, for example, could be good or bad, and it's mostly where Egyptians themselves want to bring their country to. Short term, it's never pretty. It could be fast and dirty or it can be long and painful (like Iraq). <br style="background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-family: arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">
Russia has provided us airfields in ex-USSR? Uzbekistan still asks Russia for permissions or are there puppet government inside Uzbekistan that controls what Uzbekis do? Hypocrisy? <br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-family: arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-family: arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">
In NYTIMES alone, past 12 months, I see over 2000 results on Afghanistan and opium. Not sure where are you seeing that it's not an issue for us.
I think you are getting a bit Kluge-like here. US was not involved with Egypt. Just because we didn't like Mubarak doesn't mean you lay the results at our feet, no matter how much you hate us, Americans, you just can't.
As to HOW you gauge the lucrativeness for vacationers and not its citizens? Do I need to explain the folly of that logic or do you understand?
This sucks, without a doubt but if you think US or any American supports any form of oppression, you are incorrect. Again, supporting an overthrow of a dictator != support for Islamists, Sharia, or other forms of oppression.
Sure, here they are:
In 2010, the U.S. government sponsored the visit of Al-Jowder
June 2011 U.S. recognizes Muslim Brotherhood
Democrat Senator John Kerry meets with leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood
former U.S. White House counterterrorism chief Juan Zarate said: "The Muslim Brotherhood is a group that worries us not because it deals with philosophical or ideological ideas but because it defends the use of violence against civilians."
On 29 June 2011, as the Brotherhood's political power became more apparent and solidified following the 2011 Egyptian revolution, the United States announced that it would reopen formal diplomatic channels with the group, with whom it had suspended communication as a result of suspected terrorist activity. The next day, the Brotherhood's leadership announced that they welcomed the diplomatic overture. Critics such as Martha Kessler, former CIA operative have questioned the support of the Muslim Brotherhood by the US government.
Ethics,you have missed something time period I repeat once more my original text:
Actually, even now you don't want to radically fight with this problem: http://www.ecosever.ru/article/15597.html
You don't use effective ways of destruction drug fields only 3% are destroyed (compare with 75% in Columbia, certainly this one is in your interest).
Till October 2008 your army forces haven't even authority to destroy drug labs!
Just imagine: you fight here from 2001, during your presence in that country the opium production has grown in 37 times to 2003 year!
And only in 2008 October you've recognized this problem (after hundreds of russian requests and documents towards this topic) and allowed your forces to attack drug labs FIRST TIME, just read the news:
I repeat, are you blind? Or is this just a hypocrisy?
I can't agree, both Lybia and Syria before "revolutions" were better that for e.g. Pakistan state by economics, living conditions and inter-religion relations.
Frankly speaking Lybia had better social insurance arrangements than todays Russia. And Syria had one of the best Musclim-Christian partnership in the world.
West supported all religion fanatics against Gaddafi and got worse country with religion fundamentalists who show the body of dictator in the fridge and tortures in prisons.
I thought that by showing you how much focus we have gotten over here over that issue, you'd be able to see that most Americans are not "blind" nor hypocritical. US military has been ordered NOT to destroy the fields by the US government under the pressure of Afghanis. As this 3 year old article cites:
US is the same country that puts people to jail on possession of Marijuana, so yeah, we all know how this looks. We care more about it than you can imagine.
Don't get hysterical and say idiotskii veshi.