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Islamists in Iraq...from Syria

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by ethics, Jun 12, 2014.

  1. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    Often overlooked and sometimes not known or just not reported by the media is that when we invaded Iraq to remove Saddam and get the WMDs we privately had the strong green light by most of the ME leaders such as Eygpt, Iran, Jordan, the Saudis, Kuwait, etc. Publicly, of course their words were often the opposite or quasi-neutral. But the scenario just explained has more than once been such in Middle East activities involving us.

    Former SecDef Robert Gates that served under both Bush and Obama in his recent best selling and excellent book had a negative view of Maliki.

    I'm glad we are not there now. Wish we had gotten out way, way earlier than we did. The invasion we did well. After that all we did was screw up the country for good the entire time we were there. Paul Bremer, backed by Rumsfeld was straight from hell.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
    ethics likes this.
  2. Andy

    Andy ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    You know what's totally shocking? ( he typed sarcastically)

    The same Libtard Celebs who pounded their chests about Bush's "war-crimes", all those "innocents being slaughtered" at the hands of US troops, and how illegal the Iraq was was, are COMPLETELY FUCKING SILENT when it comes to these ISIS TERRORISTS rounding up men by the dozens and machine gunning them down in broad daylight or VIDEO-ing themselves machine gunning random cars on the roads and posting it on the Internet..

    Guess the narrative doesn't fit when your Messiah has more important things to worry about, like his golf swing.
     
    ethics likes this.
  3. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Pacifists, they wouldn't say anything that would be translated or insinuation for being pro-war involvement for the US.
     
  4. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    I've always thought we should have left Saddam in our power, maybe kept him under our thumb and even put him on our salary as long as he behaved himself, and of course didn't fly anything other than airlines and quit killing Kurds and subjected to routine US inspections.

    This mess is our fault. Saddam was holding his reign. We took him out and left a power vacuum, and look what the vacuum sucked in!

    My best solution now is to cut up Iraq into 3 or more pieces and forceably relocate people until each piece is almost completely one sect.
     
  5. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    Iraq:


    Work diplomatically to replace al-Maliki with a Shiite that is committed to equal inclusivity of Sunnis in the Iraq government and general society. The new guy also must be someone trusted by the Sunnis to do what I’ve just stated.


    Upgrade or give the Kurds some military equipment in terms of small arms, ammunition, armor, modern RPGs and artillery plus MANPADS.

    If Kurds want an independent republic or country we should not support that.

    Syria:

    For now do nothing. Wait to see how things work out there. We want either Assad or the moderate rebels to triumph. The one POV or thing that Russia and the US share is neither side wants AQ or real terrorists in charge in Syria. Putin would take military action to prevent that.

    Iran:

    For now do nothing. They are the biggest troublemakers in the Middle East. They are anti-Arab, anti-Assad, anti-Sunni and anti-Israel. I’ll not argue over what the mindset or desires of the Iranian peoples are but their religious leaders that are really in charge of Iran are bad guys to just about everybody but Iran. Everything they want is contrary to stability in the Middle East.
     
  6. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Work diplomatically to replace al-Maliki with a Shiite that is committed to equal inclusivity of Sunnis in the Iraq government and general society. The new guy also must be someone trusted by the Sunnis to do what I’ve just stated.


    This would go against what US stands for. Even if this was the best practical approach, perception and symbolism is one million times more important in Middle East. Unfortunately, the only thing we CAN do is work AROUND him. He was, after all, democratically elected.

    Upgrade or give the Kurds some military equipment in terms of small arms, ammunition, armor, modern RPGs and artillery plus MANPADS.

    If Kurds want an independent republic or country we should not support that.

    Couldn't disagree more. Kurds are as different than Sunnis and Shi'ite as Africans and Norwegians. We should have helped and honed an independent Kurdistan right after the first Iraq War.

    For now do nothing. Wait to see how things work out there. We want either Assad or the moderate rebels to triumph. The one POV or thing that Russia and the US share is neither side wants AQ or real terrorists in charge in Syria. Putin would take military action to prevent that.

    Agreed here. Doing nothing seems to be the best option. If even Israelis are saying they'd rather have Assad with all his faults than whatever else that's clamoring up to that spot, then by all means. Arab Spring was a huge disappointment and did more wrong than right.

    For now do nothing. They are the biggest troublemakers in the Middle East. They are anti-Arab, anti-Assad, anti-Sunni and anti-Israel. I’ll not argue over what the mindset or desires of the Iranian peoples are but their religious leaders that are really in charge of Iran are bad guys to just about everybody but Iran. Everything they want is contrary to stability in the Middle East.
    Agreed again and I was going to state as to why when I read the rest of your paragraph and basically wanted to say the same. People of Iran != religious idiots of Iran.
     
  7. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    I think we should decide the best borders between the various sects and divide the country along those lines, then do our best to enforce the lines. Oliver North on Megyn Kelly's show said that when Ramadan comes -- soon -- wherever the borders are that's where they will stay from now on. IMO our only choice is to try to find the best borders.

    If you have a bunch of cats, a bunch of dogs, a bunch of tigers and a bunch of coyotes, it makes sense to put them in 4 different cages. That was our mistake in thinking a unified Iraq would work. It didn't work because they didn't want it to work.

    What we need is a Shiite state, a Kurd state, a Sunni state, maybe an Arab state if there are enough of them. If any of them want to combine across current map borders -- i.e.. Iraq/Syria -- let 'em.

    Once they are all stable in their borders then we figure out which ones are going to behave and which ones are going to fuck with us, and then those we fuck over good.

    The problem now is that we are still thinking of the region as Iraq. It was Iraq when Saddam ran the place. It was Iraq when our troops enforced the law. When we left Iraq it spun and wobbled like a dreidel running down, and now it's tipped over. There isn't any Iraq any more. The only question now is where are the borders of the 3-5 countries that will emerge.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2014
  8. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    If I understand you statement correctly I think you may misinterpret the US per your statement about replacing al-Malaki with a true moderate Shiite of reasonable trustworthiness. I do not believe that the US would oppose such a move. And IMO it would work but in line with your accurate comment, "approach, perception and symbolism is one million times more important in Middle East" that cannot be overlooked. However the timing is right as even though al-Malaki is there by election he is on his way out one way or another. That will create an opportunity for change, whatever it may be.

    The Kurds can exist with some help from friends quite well and relatively independently in Iraq with some help from friends. That includes the type of help I've all ready mentioned and right now the situation allows to give them that help due to the crisis and chaos happening in Iraq.

    The reason they could not or should become an independent nation is it would cause violence and dramatic unstability in that there are many Kurds in Turkey, Syria, and Iran, and Armenia. If an attempt to form an independent nation within Iraq for the Kurds happen or it was actually formed the huge number of Kurds in Syria, Turkey and Iran would want to go to or join it. Turkey would be strongly against that and would take action to prevent it as too would Syria and Iran. You could actually have a war of such over this. So let them have most of the benefits of a de facto state without formal establishment. As long as they can take care of themselves, and we can help them with that, they can thrive.

    (See attached map of the Kurd distribution in the area.)
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Just two things:

    1. al-Malaki is out of the picture as far as a solution for Iraq. Everybody should quit thinking of a country named Iraq. That is just not going to happen. It has been wishful thinking ever since current maps were drawn up to Saddam Hussein being deposed, and then Iraq was held together by U.S. glue. Now that U.S. pulled out the various factions started in-fighting and what we are seeing today is just an escalation. When it is all over the only question will be how many new countries there are and where the borders are drawn. I doubt any of them will choose Iraq is a name but hell if I can understand those nut cases.

    2. The Kurds and what was done to them by Hussein's gassing them started the present era resulting in U.S. intervention and ultimately war. As far as I can see the Kurds are the closest we are going to get to what we want out of these nut cases. Did you kow that Kurdistan allows women to serve in their army? ISIS is sweeping in from northern Syria and as they advance Iraqi soldiers -- Sunnis I think -- are handing over their weapons and/or joining ISIS. These are the same advanced weapons that the U.S. gave the Iraqi army, and now they are being used against the Kurds who are equipped with more or less outmoded weapons.

    The only chance that the Kurds have is if the U.S. gives them weaponry equivalent to the U.S. weaponry ISIS is using against them. As far as crazy motherfucker Middle Easterners go, the Kurds are our best shot at helping at least one stable non-terrorist nation come out of this fray. For that reason I agree with Arc and the others who support giving the Kurds some support in terms of giving them modern U.S. weapons sufficient to counter ISIS advances.
     
  10. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Arc, I know you are not a fan of Wikipedia but their entry on Kurds starts off with:

    Economy of Iraqi Kurdistan[1] refers to the economy of the semi-autonomous Kurdistan region in North Iraq. The Kurdistan region's economy is dominated by the oil industry, agriculture and tourism.[2][3] Due to relative security calm in the region it has a more developed economy in comparison to other parts of Iraq.

    But don't take it at face value, it's pretty well cited: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Iraqi_Kurdistan

    Having a strong economic partnership with Turkey, I am not sure I agree with you that Turkey would have a problem with an independent Kurdistan. I do agree that it would suck for Iraq proper, however.

    I am less inclined to disagree much on the other issue of dispute. I am no fan of Maliki but I always think it's best for the people who've elected him to decide what to do with him.
     
  11. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Yeah it would suck for Iraq proper but again I assert that "Iraq proper" is a fiction of the past, and there is no present day validity of the nation of Iraq. It is in the process of being re-partitioned and the only question is the shape and size of the pieces, and what they want to be called.


    Maliki was elected by "Iraq." There is no Iraq any more. If he wants and the people want him, he can be president of one of the pieces.

    I declare here and now that there will never again be a nation of Iraq unless one of the pieces wants to call themselves that. Only way there could ever be a unified Iraq ever again is if U.S. steps in and enforces it. Not going to happen.
     
  12. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Then there's this. The judge who presided over Saddam Hussein's trial has been executed by these peace loving ISIS.

     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2014
  13. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Another thing I wanted to mention, $25 BILLION... the amount of money we spent on Iraqi soldier training.
     
  14. SixofNine

    SixofNine Jedi Sage Staff Member

    I knew that we shouldn't have included that drop-your-weapon-and-run drill. We borrowed it from the Soviet training manual when the latter trained the Egyptian army back in the 60s and 70s.
     
  15. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Yep. What a fucking waste.
     
  16. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    How about the IIRC approx. 2,500 American soldier's lives lost to save their damned dung hole?
     
  17. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Some background:

    In Syria, there is:

    Assad, dictator
    ISIS -- Islamic Sunnis
    Other Rebels who initially started the rebellion and are more moderate in Islam.

    Which one of the three is the weakest? Yep, the "other moderate rebels.
    Obama was sticking out of this, which is one of the few good things he was doing. Guess what changed, and who wants to spend HALF A BILLION in training and supplying this weaker force?
     
  18. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Putin? ;)
     
  19. Biker

    Biker Administrator Staff Member

    Seems the brainwashing isn't just limited to the backwater tribes with an IQ of a gnat.

    Khaled Sharrouf photo: Grandfather of boy holding severed head 'gutted' by photo - News - MSN CA

    I find it ironic that the liberal mantra of "But it's for the children!" is strangely silent in cases like this.
     
  20. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    Is it just me, or does dad look like he's holding an Airsoft toy?
     

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