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Iraqis missing Saddam Regime

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by Arc, Apr 30, 2018.

  1. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    It’s been 18 years since we invaded Iraq to effect regime change and seize what we believed where large quantities of chemical and biological weapons stored by Saddam.

    So how are things going? Not so good. A substantial perhaps majority of Iraqis especially those living in Baghdad and what used to be Mosul think they were better off overall under Saddam than they are now.

    Below is a snippet summary of the larger and more detailed story linked below:

     
  2. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    I mean it's a shit show now, right? So bad that you'd want the old bad guy back.
     
  3. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    My interpretation of their position is the residents total living environment as to infrastructure, employment, crime, the basics of life, (especially in Baghdad), were very good under the dictatorship of Saddam. Disagree with him or oppose him then no, you were in deep shit. Life was less than grand, however much longer your life was to be. Keep your mouth shut though and show support for him if the situation required and you were fine. Those two issues settled you lived a life in a thriving modern city---especially so by Middle East Standards.

    Now, 15 years later after the war, Saddam is gone but so too is any widespread standard of life as before. Now the city and other parts of the country are shitholes with little reason to expect change for the better.

    Meanwhile, the second largest city, Mosul has been destroyed. Functionally destroyed and many of their men still left alive barred from reentering it to join their families.
     
  4. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

    Slavery under a dictatorial regime is (relatively) easy. Obey what you are told to do, don't speak out against the government and your chances of your door getting knocked in at midnight by the secret police are low. You may not have a lot, but things are stable.

    Freedom is hard. You have to make your own choices, you have to actively fight to get what you want, nothing is guaranteed.

    I fully supported Bush's concept, to install a stable, thriving people-based government. If that would have happened, Iraq's economy would have taken off, all those young men would have had jobs, families and stability of the good kind. If that had happened in Iraq, all of the other Arab countries surrounding that would have said, "Why can't we have that?" and might have started to change socially enough that the pool of Jihadist cannon fodder would have dried up.

    The bad news is, you cannot force freedom on a people from the outside. This kind of fire and urge has to come from within, and the Iraqi people by and large did not have that urge to be free.
     
  5. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    Mark, did you read the linked article and not just the summary I posted?
     
  6. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Yes, a shit show. That's how define one. Most Americans won't get this though or how can they be so miserable when they had a tyrant. I've lived under a tyranny. There are millions who've lived in the same alongside and there are many who want that system back because take away everything, you had stability.
     
  7. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

    I couldn't see/find the link, however I have followed the situation enough since the 1st Gulf War (I almost ended up in a communications detachment from NCTAMS WESTPAC Guam to Saudi Arabia) that I know what's going on. I used the term "slave" because that's what they were for the most part.

    It's also what brought out my distinction between right-wing and left-wing dictatorships.

    A right-wing dictatorship demands your physical obedience. Think what you want, but do as you're told. Left-wing dictatorships require unity of thought. Thinking the wrong things gets you a bullet in your brain bucket.
     
  8. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    That's all very interesting Mark but it has little to do with the specific topic. Why you couldn't find the link is puzzling as it is right there in the OP (at the very end and it is quite prominent too.)

    Here:




    Click on where it says in blue “15 Years After U.S. Invasion, Some Iraqis Are Nostalgic for Saddam Hussein era”


    Our invading Iraq didn’t cause the majority of the problems in Iraq which spilled over into the rest of the Middle East, rather it was what we did AFTER we kicked out the regime. Thanks to our wrong actions and our wrong inactions that was the most significant impact on areas that created the major issues in Iraq and also were key in destabilizing the region.
     
  9. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

    I see why, I have NoScript on pretty tight and it didn't allow those links to show.

    I understand that the US didn't see that Saddam was forcefully holding the country (Sunni, Shiites and Kurds) together in "non-conflict." When we gave them an unwanted freedom, their choice was to start killing the other groups.

    Our objective (install a stable democracy) was noble one. The problem was, the Iraqi people by and large were not ready for or could handle a US style freedom. We basically emancipated an 8-year-old from helicopter parents and all the kid wants to do is eat chocolate until they throw up. It's at that point the kid considers the helicopter parents making all the decisions for him wasn't all that bad.

    It was too much change, too fast for people who had no real concept of US-style freedom. They see us doing whatever we want, but don't see all the things that have to happen under the surface to make a freedom-based society work the right way.
     
  10. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    How many generals does Trump surround himself with?

    Ok, back to the point. The White House and State Department should have looked around Iraq and said who are the leaders and how can they help us. Instead they let the military decide to completely disband the Iraqi Army which had most of the leaders and there you have it. And now we have Mattis doing most of the talking about how long we will stay in Syria and Afghanistan. The hits just keep on coming.
     
  11. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    1. That's it?

    2. I think that your post here is probably the shortest on record for a subject that is so huge. (Just an observation and a curiosity, not a criticism.)

    3. Would be a fair statement to say you don't like Trump?

    I guess I am going to have to respond to your great post on him in another thread. No, no, don't try to talk me out of it. :)
     
  12. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    I remember John Kennedy not liking the options given him by the military in the Cuban Missile Crisis. I think it was wise then and I wish we had the skepticism for military solutions in recent administrations, not just Trump's. If you are a hammer every problem looks like a nail. The military looks for military solutions, no surprise there. Trump has not manned up the State Department so the balance of diplomacy vs the military is just not there when we have a president who needs good advice more than any in memory. And remember, my background has 27 years of military service in it. I trust their honor but not their ability to think outside a narrow box.
     
    Arc likes this.
  13. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    A national government is either a dictatorship by one or a religion or it is by consent of the governed. So the governed have to have some basic belief in common goals and the structure of the government. The grand experiment that is the United States held together 13 different jurisdictions that grew. The belief in the common goals was stretched quite thin and had to survive the Civil War with, what, 500K dead, in order to grow. It is on ongoing experiment. You can look at laws and the Constitution and say we have solved religious and racial issues. But the continued strife on those subjects shows that the experiment is ongoing and its ultimate success is still two strides forward and one back. And yet we diddle with the lives of whole regions and impose on them a form of government that is not yet beyond the theory stage.
     
    Arc likes this.
  14. MemphisMark

    MemphisMark Old School Conservative

    I remember people being shocked and angry because we couldn't come up with the perfect form of government for Iraq in 6 weeks. I got blank stares of the "WTF are you talking about?" kind when I tried telling them that we had the Articles of Confederation for 12+ years before the Constitution.

    I guess they had the assumption that after the founding fathers wrote the Declaration of Independence on July 4th, they came back on the 5th and wrote the Constitution.
     

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