Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by halldor, Oct 26, 2002.
Hehe, sorry, I am thick at times.
Speculation is fun.
Perhaps the gas used was tested and formulated for use against troops in the open, not concentrated inside of a building. Perhaps the gas was in storage for a long time, under less than optimal conditions. Perhaps the gas was produced under the usual high quality control of Soviet and Russian industries (this is sarcasm).
Regardless, the methods and technologies used by the Russians will never be revealed by them. To do so would be stupidity bordering upon the criminal.
Take a look at other successful hostage rescues. Seldom are all innocent hostages rescued unharmed.
What I'm seeing is the near certainty that, inspired by their "success" in Moscow, Russian forces are now freely using the same gas in Chechnya, on men, women and children.
Mr. Putin is indeed sending out a clear message.
(excerpt of article by the Associated Press via ClariNet)
"Russia will answer with measures adequate to the threat...in all places where the terrorists, the organizers of these crimes or their ideological or financial sponsors are located," Putin said. "I emphasize -- wherever they may be."
We know Mr. Putin's words are about response are true. They were proven in the theatre.
The Russians were successful in producing the end to their terrorist siege, and sacrifices were made, but the world has X amount less terrorists today than yesterday.
Out of curiosity, if the siege at the Russian theatre had taken place in a U.S. theatre, whether in a metropolis or urban area, would the outcome have been the same? Would we have the resolve to do what the Russians did and sacrifice civilian lives to overcome a band of cutthroat terrorists? I would hope we would. Even if I were one of the captives, I would have to say "Gas the bastards rather than let them win!"
No way in hell. It would have been dragged out and negotiated to death.
Remember that Nativity Church scene in Israel? If not for the "International Community"(which the US is not part of any more apparently) the perps would never have lived.
If we don't as yet have that needed resolve, perhaps we should find it...both as a country and a people.
I agree that if, God forbid, something like that were to happen here at home, it would be dragged out and negotiated to death. Imagine the media circus for that one, and the ratings war between the networks to out-sensationalize one another.
We didn't want to play. They brought the game home to us. The rules are not set in stone, but are changing, and we need to be aware of and adapt to that fact. The Russian people are painfully aware of it. Negotiations are not effective.
When someone brings their game to you, in order to win, you must have the resolve to take their game directly back to them...unless there's another way to win against those who have no rules.
One must fight fire with water.
From what I have read, the terrorists bodies were wired with explosives in close proximity to hostages and other explosives. The reason so few attackers survived, was alpha force soldiers dispatched the unconscious terrorists with a point blank shot to the forehead. The purpose was to prevent one from awakening and pushing a detonator button. The gas story is confusing, as latest reports indicate an opiate, and naloxone was seen being used by ambulance crews and Doctors. But I have treated opiate overdoses, even massive overdoses, with Nalaxone, among other things, and my observations are not consistent with what I have heard thus far. Perhaps this is an analogue like fentanyl, but with a longer half-life. Fentanyl is essentially a heroin analogue, roughly 1000x as potent, widely used in anesthesia and treatment of severe and chronic pain.
Well, they are saying <a href="http://www.streetdrugs.org/fentanyl.htm">Fentanyl</a>.
I can understand the need for vengeance - we are all human, we all experience such irrational emotions, especially in times of anger. I can understand wanting to 'gas the bastards' that dare take hostages - I totally agree with having that emotional reaction.
However, the rational side of me asks the following question: isn't the point of rescueing hostages just that - rescueing them? WHY ON EARTH WOULD A GOV'T KILL IT'S OWN PEOPLE DURING A RESCUE MISSION.
The answer is - this wasn't a rescue mission. It started off as one, but quickly turned into a pissing contest between the Russian Gov't and the hostage takers - who can be more of a badass. Russian Gov't won, clearly - and it only cost how many civilian lives?
If this were to happen in the states, I hope that it would never reach the point that 700+ hostage lives are the price our gov't would pay to get rid of 30-50 terrorists. Because if that is the case, how easy would it be for terrorists to start taking over schools, office buildings, restaurants, etc - they already think of themselves as martyrs, what better way than to die by the hand of your enemy and have them take out all your hostages in the process? It wouldn't take much effort or planning or training at all - very cost effective way to terrorize us, if they thought our gov't would execute hostages along with them in order to stop the hostage crisis.
Very interesting point, Misu. If the government is willing to sacrifice their own, why not use that as your venue if you are the terrorist?
I see it another way. It proves that when someone takes hostages, those hostages have no bargaining power.
Look at our foreign policies over the past 40 years. We've sacrificed many innocents in other countries in order to remove only one person from power...have done it a number of times, and continue to do so.
The government <B>is</B> willing to sacrifice their own. Are we so naive as to believe otherwise? It just hasn't happened here in the states yet...that we know of.
As long as taking a person hostage gives a terrorist bargaining powers, people will continue to be taken. As terrible as it sounds, if worse comes to worse, the value factor of the hostage to the terrorist must be removed from the equation.
It appears that the Russian government has confirmed that the gas used was a Fentanyl Compound.