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Cub Scouts to Boot Atheist

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by ethics, Oct 29, 2002.

  1. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Yes, that's the crux of it. The BSA believes you to be, by virtue of your sexual preference, immoral. Likewise, they believe me, by virtue of my unimaginative refusal to believe in a deity to be immoral.

    The BSA has heard of secular humanism, but they want to truck with it...and that is their perogative as a private organization.
     
  2. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    Atheists have no imagination. I would have thought it took more imagination to question what you are taught than to blindly follow. Now where's that flame proof suit.
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Is that it, then?

    Ah, Shiny, I can't tell which way you're leaning on this one, but you do go straight to the point.

    Athiests are so certain there is no God, or gods, that their minds are closed to any further exploration of the subject.

    Most persons of faith I've ever known are open to all possibilities, including the possible non-existence of God, or gods; we've just decided to settle on one form of worship as a practical matter.

    The quest for knowledge must never be limited to "scientific inquiry" alone. Without internal quests for knowledge, including the exploration of the existence of a higher power, the world would be a far bleaker one in which to live.
     
  4. RRedline

    RRedline Veteran MMember

    I seriously had no idea that the BSA had a single thing to do with God or any religion. If this is in fact the case, then I was ignorant, and I admit it. If it is a Christian organization, then I can also see why they would have a problem with homosexuals. In my opinion, the Bible spells it out very easily to understand in Leviticus. Anyone who follows the Bible and interprets the passages in Leviticus to mean anything other than "homosexuality is sin" is really walking on thin ice. If anybody can interpret that another way, then they might as well throw out the Bible and just make up their own book. Of course, then THAT book can be interpreted any number of ways... I just find it odd that a book filled with such bias and inconsistencies is taken seriously by anyone. Oh well, I guess I am in the minority with regards to religion.

    I still never got a direct answer, so I will ask those of you who are opposed to my views to please clear this up for me. Is the real reason that the BSA excludes atheists and homosexuals due to the group's religious beliefs? If not, then I am having a very, very difficult time understanding them.
     
  5. Steve

    Steve Is that it, then?

    You're doing it again, but I will attempt to answer your question:

    I don't know why they oppose homosexuals and athiests. It's quite irrelevant, really.

    ethics brought up this case to illustrate that he, also, was not aware that they opposed membership for such people and that he thought it was wrong. Fine. He can withdraw support, via United Way, and other ways. That's his right.

    The only point I, or anyone else, really, have been arguing, is that the young man in question should simply do the same. How tragic for him, after all, to be forced, by way of membership in the Scouts, to associate with people whose beliefs are different from his.

    Do you see how it cuts both ways?

    One cannot argue for the nonexistence of God and simultaneously demand that those who believe in God's existence allow you to play with them.

    The word is "hypocrisy". He is a hypocrite, especially as he has know his entire life what the Scout code requires.

    In a very real sense, he has been living a lie, for whatever his motives may be. That lie, in my opinion, is grounds enough for the Scouts to terminate his membership. Lying isn't a very good indicator of moral behavior, is it?

    They could be opposed to the color red and it could be his favorite color. The particulars of the matter are irrelevant.

    The hypocrisy, however, is quite real.
     
  6. RRedline

    RRedline Veteran MMember

    That is completely untrue. I struggled for YEARS with my beliefs! I grew up believing in God, Jesus, Heaven, Hell...you name it. It was my own independent, OPEN-MINDED thinking that led me to the belief that there most-likely is no such thing as "God." Do I preach it from the mountain tops? Ummm...no. Do I exclude religious people from my list of friends? Nope. Do I form organizations that exclude them because they are immoral according to my own beliefs? Hell no.

    I call myself an atheist because I think there probably is no God - certainly not one that is the exact same God that is spoken of in the Bible or any other earthly book.


    Really? I certainly can't say the same. Most religious people I know(admittedly all Christians) tell me that you must believe that Jesus is your savior, and you must believe in God - THE God. In my opinion, any Christian who is open-minded to the possibility that there is no God is not really a believer.


    And how would you propose we explore the presence of a higher power without using any scientific means? I'm sorry, but "I believe this," or "My ancestors believed this," are not proof of any higher power. If science leads us to God, then so be it. If science leads us to favor creationism over evolution, so be it. Until then, I go with what makes sense to me, and the "Invisible Man Upstairs Theory" just doesn't hold up.
     
  7. Steve

    Steve Is that it, then?

    Well, I'm sorry that you seem to view religion solely through the narrow confines of the Bible. I wish you luck on your journey.
     
  8. RRedline

    RRedline Veteran MMember

    I agree with you completely. If you go back and read my other posts in this thread, you'll see that I have suggested many times that this man should tell the BSA where to stick their club. Also, I have never suggested that the BSA be forced to admit anyone into their organization. I am simply questioning why they exclude whom they do. If it is religious beliefs, then I can't argue with them. After all, why can't women be Catholic priests? I am not about to dictate to them that they must allow women in the priesthood, but I will encourage women to tell the Catholic where to stick their religion.

    It's not so much that I disagree with you or anyone else in here. I think it's more just my taking offense that a group doesn't view me as fit to be a role model for our youth. The popularity and support for the group only makes it more insulting. Does that make sense to you?
     
  9. Steve

    Steve Is that it, then?

    Please forgive me for misunderstanding your position. I can understand fully why you would take offense. It makes perfect sense.

    As far as I know, the BSA unofficially has adopted a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. After all, it's ridiculous to believe that there are no gay men or athiests in the Scouts. They are practical people, after all (must be the Lutheran influence :) )

    I don't know for a fact that the exclusions are based on religious principles, although that's the only thing that makes any sense.
     
  10. RRedline

    RRedline Veteran MMember

    What would you suggest? That Christians, whose beliefs are structured around the Holy Bible, use sources other than the Bible? Are you suggesting heresy? Don't they go to Hell too?

    I find it absolutely amusing how such a large number of people claim to be Christian, or more specifically Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, etc., but then they add a list of exceptions to their beliefs. I know many Catholics who don't believe in confession and certainly don't believe in keeping the Sabbath holy. They don't like going to church, so they make another exception. Some don't believe in Baptism. Some don't even believe in Hell! It's becoming more and more that people just mix and match all the things they like about religion, yet they continue to refer to themselves as Christian or Catholic, etc. No, you're all heretics according to your own Holy Bible, and it says you're going to Hell for it. Oh yeah, yo don't believe in Hell. That's convenient.

    I see religions evolving before my eyes with people interpreting this and that however they see fit. After a while, you end up with a completely different religion! Let's just add them to the already huge list of religions practiced around the world. Even though there are so many people with so many different beliefs, it is atheists who are looked down upon the most. It's the "at least they believe in SOMETHING" attitude that makes me sick.
     
  11. Steve

    Steve Is that it, then?

    I would suggest the study of other belief systems around the world.

    No person who has truly searched for answers to their questions embraces any one religion in its "pure" form. Nor is all religion rejected because of the shortcomings of a few, or one.

    Study the works of other cultures.
     
  12. jamming

    jamming Banned

    A Scout is Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obediant, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent. At least when I was a Scout, being Reverent requires you to Revere something, how will a Atheist be Reverent?

    reverent

    adj 1: feeling or showing profound respect or veneration; "maintained a reverent silence" [ant: irreverent] 2: showing great reverence for god; "a godly man"; "leading a godly life" [syn: godly, worshipful]
    Source: WordNet 1.6, 1997 Princeton University
     
  13. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Hmmm....I've read the christian bible cover to cover a number of times, I've studied Lao Tzu, I've studied the multifold path of various sects of Buddhism...along with the writings of Joseph Campbell, Alan Watts and Carl Jung. I don't pretend to have spent a career studying every religion, but I've investigated enough to satisfy myself that there's no one in charge, or even minding the store.

    Atheism in and of itself does not necessarily preclude spiritualism, though it often times does.

    Until someone comes along with some tantalizing new information, I'm pretty sure that my conclusion as to the non-existence of a deity is sufficient for myself. Oh, and if there is some new tantalizing information out there...be sure and pass it along.

    Edit:
    While the universe operates with both supreme chaos and supreme logic, I am quite certain that it is not a random cypher.
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Is that it, then?

    Athiesm, to me, is the complete rejection of the notion that there is anything other than human consciousness.

    You, my friend, do not qualify as an athiest, at least not in my book :)
     
  15. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Gadzooks! I guess denying the existence of god doesn't cut it anymore....tough crowd ;)
     

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