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Cub Scouts to Boot Atheist

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by ethics, Oct 29, 2002.

  1. Steve

    Steve Is that it, then?

    How about "because it is their right"?

    It's my right to write a racist novel in which minorities are lynched.

    It's my right to march down the street screaming that everyone who doesn't find Jesus will burn in Hell.

    It's my right to view pornography and masturbate until my arm falls off.

    It's my right to go to the place of worship I choose.

    It's my fundamental, "don't screw with me because one of my other rights is to own a gun", "none of anyone's business why and if they don't like too damn bad", right to associate with whomever I choose for any reason I choose.

    The BSA has made a decision, based on the history of their organization as being founded in a male-dominated, Christian society, to NOT ASSOCIATE with athiests because it is their RIGHT.

    Before condemning the BSA for their choice, we need to closely examine the implications of abrogating those rights.

    The wonderful, exasperating dichotomy of the American Constitution is that so much that is good can also encompass, allow, and even encourage so much that our larger society finds reprehensible.
     
  2. pupowski

    pupowski Banned

    They don't see their spiritual and moral beliefs as primitive dogma, nor do I. It is a private group that reflects the wishes of it's sponsors and members, and the philosophy of it's founders. Those that don't like it can join other groups, or go pound sand.
     
  3. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Set up in 1903 by?

    Back then, everyone was on the primitive dogma, whether you want to admit that or not.
     
  4. drslash

    drslash It's all about the beer

    Glad to hear that you know everything about everyone's beliefs from 100 years ago. Next time I need to know what Gandhi was thinking 100 years ago, I'll ask you.:rolleyes:
     
  5. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Sorry, I should have used "most" instead of everyone.

    Baden-Powell founded scouting at the turn of the 20th century. BSA was founded by 1910 not 1903.
    I was off by 7 years but not too badly.

    This was several decades after Marx procalimed religion as an opiate, and a couple decades after Nietzsche announced the death of God. This was more than 100 years into the history of secular government. Baden-Powell didn't worry that there was too much religion, but too little. He was well aware of secularism... he opposed it.

    One of the mistakes we often make when we look at history is that we tend to project current trends backwards. Thus, whatever problems we have now were worse 100 years ago and twice as bad 200 years ago.

    Religion is one of those things that doesn't progress in a linear fashion. The dawn of the 20th century was a far more enlightened time than our own in many ways. Women couldn't vote... but our government wasn't in the business of legislating private morality either.
     
  6. jamming

    jamming Banned

    Primitive Dogma is IMHO Atheism, it is what is necessary for one that has no imagination. The first man without any imagination was probably an Atheist. :thumbsup:
     
  7. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    While I am not an Atheist, I'd rather be one without so called imagination than a Scientologist with plenty of it. rofl
     
  8. jamming

    jamming Banned

    You mean an Atheist, like Joe Stalin? :_
     
  9. RRedline

    RRedline Veteran MMember

    Wow, thanks a lot, drslash. I can understand the part about spiritual development, but strong moral character development? Because I don't believe in god or because I am gay, I can not encourage young men to help out their fellow man? I try to follow the Golden Rule(yes, I know it's from the Bible), and back when I was a high school teacher, I tried to impose that on my students. Not once did I ever try to guide young men or women into the homosexual lifestyle, and not once did I discuss religion or spirituality.

    If you think that one requires faith in a god and a sexual atraction to the opposite sex to promote strong moral character development, then there is no way that I am going to swing your opinion on this issue. The BSA has every LEGAL right to exclude the people they choose, and I have every right to say that I don't like them for it. I have never thought of the BSA as a "religious" organization until this recent BS that they've started pulling. If they truly have always been a religious organization, then I guess my views towards them has been way off for many years. I will now view them the same way that I view other religious organizations with regards to separation of church and state and their motives for excluding people like me.

    Do the BSA teach boys about God, Jesus, etc.? If so, do they pray and have church services? Is there a religion badge? I am curious.
     
  10. drslash

    drslash It's all about the beer

    For everyone seeking an alternative to BSA and those who want to redirect their financial resources: SpiralScouts
     
  11. RRedline

    RRedline Veteran MMember

    Why is it so important for a heterosexual to be a boy scout leader? Why would a homosexual's desires be any different from a heterosexual's? You ask, "Why would they want to be a member," and I ask, "Why wouldn't the BSA want them as members?"

    I am still waiting for an answer to my question from many a post ago. The best asnswer that I have gotten so far is that they truly are a religious(Christian?) organization, so they feel that atheists and homosexuals are leading immoral lives and are therefore unfit to be role models for our youth. Is this true?

    Again, Iam not suggestnig that they be forced to do anything they don't want to do. I just want to know what their problem is with me?
     
  12. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Which really proves that not all religions are invited. :)
     
  13. RRedline

    RRedline Veteran MMember

    Every example you listed dealt with liberal democrats. I could easily make the same argument that government is hostile towards homosexuals. Many republicans in office are vocal about their distaste for equal rights for gay people. In fact, Bill Clinton, a LIBERAL DEMOCRAT, signed the "Defense of Marriage Act" in 1996 which gives each state the right NOT to recognize gay unions.

    The BSA may not be at the top of the democrats' priority list, but I'm sure there are lots of republicans who embrace them.

    Ethics is right...if he started a club that excluded Muslims, he would be sued left and right. But isn't it his legal right to exclude?
     
  14. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    I could imagine the uproar regarding companies like United Way supporting LSA. Can you imagine how many companies would support me? Non, zilch, nada, zippo, all of them would be too scared to even touch me.

    Now atheists and gays? Bah, who the hell are they?

    The government and this whole private organization foundings and protection thereof reeks of hypocrisy.
     
  15. drslash

    drslash It's all about the beer

    There is no teaching about God or Jesus. In a Scout book there are a couple pages about duties to God and what those may entail such as attending the church of your choice, talking to your church leader about your faith, praying as taught by your family or church, and performing acts of service to others.The only time that prayers are said are at a mealtime gathering of Scouts.

    There are no official BSA worship services but many local churches have an annual Scout Recognition day. If the Scouts and their parents chose they can be recognized during this service and can have the religious badge awarded to the Scout if they have earned it.

    Refer to one of my previous posts about the religion badge. This badge is owned by the organization that awards it and is paid for by the Scout or the parents and not paid for by the BSA.
     
  16. RRedline

    RRedline Veteran MMember

    Atheism is primitive dogma? Well assuming you are Christian, how do you view the other religions? Let's use Islam as an example since it is much more popular on a global scale. Is Islam "primitive dogma?" Any "good" Christian must know that the Bible is the only word of God, so what does that make the Qu'ran? Is it primitive dogma? I'm sure you will come up with some sort of reason to avoid heavy criticism by calling other religions primitive dogma, but how can any religion except the "right one" be anything BUT primitive?

    Perhaps all religious beliefs/nonbeliefs could be considered dogma, but primitive?

    By the way, thanks for using the term <i>imagination</i>. Does that mean that you view religions as the works of imaginative people? I can't believe that you set yourself up like that. :happy:
     
  17. drslash

    drslash It's all about the beer

    Sorry, they're included.
     
  18. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Why the hoopla then? Frustrated by an unsuccessful campaign to achieve religious recognition from the Boy Scouts of America, a Seattle-based Wicca church has launched its own youth program, which is based on tolerance for different beliefs, including differences in sexual orientation.
     
  19. Steve

    Steve Is that it, then?

    RRedline, may I offer some constructive criticism?

    Your evident dislike of all things religious is preventing you from discussing the issue. All you seem to be doing is rebutting statements made by others with ones of your own that only prove your point.

    I think we all understand your point.

    Try to listen and understand what we are saying.

    There will still be disagreement, but at least there will be dialog, as well.
     
  20. Steve

    Steve Is that it, then?

    Sound like that could be the crux of the matter, not the fact that the group practices Wicca.
     

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