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Cub Scouts to Boot Atheist

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by ethics, Oct 29, 2002.

  1. drslash

    drslash It's all about the beer

    My point was to show what the Scouts don't do by showing what they do. I'll spell it out more clearly for you, the Scouts do not preach hatred for anyone, they do not pray at den meetings, they do not use vulgar language around the Scouts, the Scouts don't have a political agenda, and the leaders do not smoke or drink alcohol around the Scouts, to name a few.

    I certainly don't hate you and I don't think the Scouting organization hates you. They just don't want you to be a Scout leader. I, for one, would have no problem with a gay man being a Scout leader if he left his sexual practices at home. I feel the same way about a heterosexual man that likes to watch pornography. If he leaves that at home, no problem. I would have a problem with either Scout leader if they were doing something they weren't suppose to be doing, say for instance, they were showing their tattoos to the Scouts and telling them how cool it is to have a tattoo. I would take that up directly with the person. I would consider this leader not up to the standards expressed in the Scout charter.

    IMO the Boy Scouts are one of the most benign organizations around who's sole interest is to get parents to spend some time with their kids and pass on the traditions of scouting to young boys and young men.
  2. jamming

    jamming Banned

    This is where you go way wrong, they don't HATE you, they just don't want you in a leadership position in their private organization. If they hate you they would be out there getting their, "Shoot the Fag!" Merit Badge.

    Why does the desire that some people have not to have you in a leadership position, equal hate. Does any one that doesn't want to have something with Gay People equal hate? I think not, but evidently you do. If I don't want to have anything to do with red headed people, does that mean I hate them or does that mean that every time I see them I think of CarrotTop commercials. (This is a fictional For Instance)

    Dislike or avoidance does not always equal HATE.
  3. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    If identification or scouting is of paramount importance to anyone feeling adversely affected by the BSA stated principles, they are free to establish the Gay Scouts of America or the Atheist Scouts of America. The GSA, would of course cause much confusion and no small amount of derision. ;)
  4. RRedline

    RRedline Veteran MMember

    I'm not really picking on them. If they want to have a no-gays/no-atheists club, they are free to do it. I am not suggesting we force them to allow someone in their organization. I am just suggesting that I don't like how they exclude certain groups. If you think I am like Al Sharpton, then you are sadly mistaken. There is nothing frivolous about speaking your mind. Al Sharpton does more than just that - he goes so far as digging up racism where even other blacks can not. Look at the recent crap he and Jesse Jackson pulled over the movie <i>Barbershop</i>. I am not crusading to get laws changed to force homosexuals and atheists into the BSA. I don't see how comparing me to Al Sharpton is very fair at all.

    All I'm saying is SCREW THEM. I wish this 19 year old had the sensibilities to say the same thing. It truly is their loss.
  5. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    I think this is the only point you, myself, and techie(among others) have stated.

    I am not sure why everyone is getting overly defensive about it. I am not threatening to go to courts to admit Atheists and Gays, we are just pointing out that BSA's policy is a little weak.
  6. jamming

    jamming Banned

    So there is no one you would ever exclude as a group from a group that you hang out with?
  7. RRedline

    RRedline Veteran MMember

    I am not comparing the BSA to the KKK! I am simply applying some other posters' logic in defending the BSA to another group of people(KKK). Drslash defended them by listing a bunch of positive things that the BSA does for the community. Nobody is disputing that at all. I KNOW the BSA does wonderful things for out young men and our communities. However, I can't overlook how they discriminate against gays and atheists just because of the nice things they do. I simply separated the BSA from the argument to try to simplify my own personal logical approach to the issue. Most people hate the KKK because they are racist assholes. Since most people do not like racism(many do support discriminating against gays and atheists), I thought it would be a perfect example. If they started doing all the good things that the BSA does, and they continued to spread hatred and racism on the weekends, would we all overlook the bad and focus only on the good they do? Of course not! So why do the same thing with the BSA? Of course, I just assumed that people would be against excluding homosexuals and atheists from an organization designed to build character in our young men, but I guess maybe I was wrong.

    Please, everyone stop accusing me of "comparing" the BSA to the KKK. I simply argued that I would not overlook bad things that the KKK does, so why should I overlook things the BSA does that I don't agree with? That's all. I don't care if they have bake sales and visit the elderly in nursing homes. Their stance is that I am not fit to guide their young members, so FUCK THEM. What they are doing is perfectly legal, but still I say, FUCK THEM. Fuck them, fuck them, fuck them. That is a brief summary of how I look at this. I am not trying to break up their club or force them to allow me in it. F U C K T H E M .

    Oh yeah, and I say the same thing to the KKK. :happy:
  8. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Based on their beliefs or lack of religion? Or even gender preferences in bed?

    I tend to exclude assholes, it's a fine method. ;)
  9. RRedline

    RRedline Veteran MMember

    Thank you for understanding my point! I wish the 19 year old would just flip them the bird and move on.

    Comparing me to Al Sharpton is insane! I am not suggesting a lawsuit or trying to extort money from the BSA. I am just suggesting that people like the guy in the article tell them where to go and move on. I don't agree with their stupid rules, and I am glad that they have been kicked out of public establishments. I understand how that can make people reading this very angry with me because I know that the BSA probably meant a lot to some in here.

    I am still waiting for someone to give me a rational explanation for why they exclude homosexuals and atheists, by the way. So far all have read is, "because they can," and, "because they do a lot of really good things for people."
  10. drslash

    drslash It's all about the beer

    I'll certainly defend something that I value. When I hear the BSA called haters and racists, you'll find me defending the BSA in any way that I can.
  11. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    How would you describe them then when they are discriminating (which is what it really is) based on religion (or lack of) and sexual orientation?

    Or as Rredline has stated:
  12. jamming

    jamming Banned

    I thought we weren't going into gender preferences ;)

    See there are things that you are uncomfortable with, now about children are you more or less concerned about what you are comfortable with them? Look one day the BSA may change their stand on this issue, when it is more culturally acceptable. Why does the BSA have to be on the cutting edge of this controversy? Why not let them be what they are representing the mainstream, why do children have to be used by people to deal with this?

    When Jefferson didn't free his slaves everyone thinks of how evil he is compared to others who freed them on their deaths. But yet except for this one issue, he did some remarkable things. We hold everyone to a standard of perfection that is ridiculous, are all gays law abiding citizens? What standard will you be found wanting in the future or present? RRedline overreacts with hate and make comparison to the KKK. Robert E. Lee was a Great American, not for all the things he did and believed but for some of what he thought and believed. Martin Luthur King Jr. Had many extramarital affairs, but that doesn't diminish what he did as a Civil Rights Leader. Life has contradictory issues in situations where there is no right answer, but some people keep hammering on about perfection.

    Think about a young american man, who goes into Afghanistan in the early 1980's and meets Osama Bin Laden. Did he do something to confirm this madman's beliefs about Americans? Should he realized the rhetoric was aimed at western ideas in general. Could he walk away from brave men and their families which would die, if they didn't have protection from an invading military's assault helicopters. What would you do?

    What the heck do you think this is, what if the Scouts pulled their objection and they suffered massive membership losses because of it? How many of the scouting support staff would lose their jobs and what about all the young men that might never have a mostly positive experience in their life. You think that this is a single issue, where all these issues are linked. That the answer is simple and without complication. Lincoln said if he could keep slavery and save the Union he would do so, early on in his presidency. Yet when presented the opportunity to free the slaves in southern states, he seized it. Your arguments are mostly idealistic and thereby unrealistic, change comes but when it is forced upon people there is resistance and more hate.
  13. drslash

    drslash It's all about the beer

    The people that make up the BSA want to carry on an organization that is god fearing and adheres to moral principles (as well as having a structure for young boys and young men to do the traditional scouting activities). Atheism and homosexuality do not, in the opinion of the BSA, and in my opinion, promote spiritual growth and strong moral character developement. The parents of Boy Scouts place much trust in the Scout Leaders. I think it is rational for parents, who share the values of the BSA, to expect the Scout leaders to be god fearing and have strong moral principles. I see the BSA no differently than I would see any other organization that has membership requirements. Isn't it rational to compare the private organization of the BSA to, say for instance, with MENSA? If I don't meet their membership requirements, I can't join.
  14. Sunriser13

    Sunriser13 Knee Deep in Paradise

    Ah, but they say the mere acceptance of a higher power, <i>any</i> higher power, would meet their criteria. Apparently a confirmed satanist would be more acceptable than an admitted atheist if one were to read this literally...

    The young man's moral principles appear golden.

    <small>Edited for spelling error</small>
  15. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Whoa there. First of all, the "children" span from 4 to 19, I believe, and a lot older than that. So it's not just about children.

    Secondly, if BSA falls because of letting Atheists in, then heck, it had a weak base to begin with if the strongest foundation of BSA was believing in the higher diety.

    You, as well as I, know that BSA would not fail, they would adjust just like any other successful organization.
  16. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    MENSA is based on merit, a standardized test. BSA membership is whether you fear God (and why should anyone fear Him since he loves everyone?) or not.

    I don't think the two are comparable.
  17. drslash

    drslash It's all about the beer

    Come on, think about it, you're smart enough...probably smart enough to be able to join MENSA. :)

    MENSA will not let someone join using their own definition of intelligence or someone who wants the test score requirement to be overlooked.

    Those who have been excluded from the BSA want their definition of character to be used or want a requirement to be overlooked.

    I think you know what "fearing God" means. http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=fear
  18. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    This is one helluva lot about nothing. The BSA is a private organization that does quite a bit of good. They're also a repressive PRIVATE organization. In answer to the question posed...because they can is a good enough answer. I'm an atheist and what they do has no affect on me. It doesn't cause me to be incensed, feel excluded, feel disenfranchised, sell my first born child or anything else. Since when in the hell did being an atheist, a homosexual, pro plankton, anti Jesus or anything else entitle one to special dispensation with respect to common sense? And that's really what most of this crap is about...common sense.

    To be sure, special interests with respect to disaffected 'minorities' is headline news and courtroom drama, but I ask again, how far south of common sense do we need to travel?

    RRedline, we agree on a lot of thigs, but why in the hell is it so important for homosexuals to be Boy Scouts? As a white heterosexual middle aged male, I can't be a Girl Scout leader..somehow this doesn't bother me. And don't give me this crap about being male somehow disqualifies me from being a Girl Scout. The point is, why would anyone specifically disqualified from belonging to a private organization raise such hell about such..said..same?

    I believe that most churches are nothing more than a gathering place for agenda driven narrow minded tight asses. I have no plans to lobby or demonstrate against them because I think they're morally corrupt and discriminate against atheists. Fact is, on a purely moral level, they do quite a bit of good...as do the Boy Scouts, and I'm perfectly okay with that.

    As far as I'm concerned, this debate has turned into another example of a faction demanding tolerance, while the furthest thing from their mind is actually having to give any.
  19. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Perhaps for you, Coot, it doesn't fly by me. Because they can?

    How much you want to make a bet that if I start a private organization that excludes Muslims, I would be closed down within a week. Because BSA has enough clout in the government is the real difference between Leon's Scouts of America and BSA.

    Couldn't be further from the truth. Rredline and myself has been saying ad-nauseum that it's not about legaly having what BSA has. It's about taste, morals, and what's right to us. BSA's rules aren't. I am not crying, selling my first born, or losing any sleep. I am airing my opinion in a forum.
  20. drslash

    drslash It's all about the beer

    This has nothing to do with whether the BSA can legally discriminate. The PC view to allow gays in the BSA is rampant in the governament establishment. True, the judicial branch of government permits the BSA rules of free association. That ruling wasn't the result of lobbying. Bill Clinton rejected his title of Honorary BSA President. And to just throw some more fuel on the fire, the Boy Scouts were spat upon at the 2000 democrat national presidential convention. I don't see where the BSA has any clout with the government.

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