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Cub Scouts to Boot Atheist

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by ethics, Oct 29, 2002.

  1. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    The Chief Seattle Council of the Boy Scouts has given Eagle Scout Darrell Lambert about a week to decide "in his heart" if he's truly an atheist. If he insists on sticking to his belief that there is no God, the Council will terminate his membership.
    "No way" is he going to change his beliefs, says Lambert, who has been in scouting since he was 9 years old. "It'd be like me asking them to change their belief. It's not going to happen."

    His beliefs, if unchanged, give the Scouts no choice, says Brad Farmer, council's Scout executive in Seattle.

    In 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the Boy Scouts' right as a private organization to ban certain members. The Scouts exclude atheists and gays.

    What the...

    <a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134564883_boyscout29m.html">This article points out</a> that The 19-year-old has earned 37 merit badges, been a quartermaster and three-time senior patrol leader, and now he's an assistant Scoutmaster and a field leader in training as part of the Search and Rescue Program. In his senior year in high school, he racked up more than 1,000 hours of community service.

    He doesn't believe in smoking or taking illegal drugs. His mom offered to take him out for a drink when he turns 21. But he doesn't believe in drinking alcohol.

    And he doesn't believe in God not since the ninth grade.

    Can a person be a Scout if they believe in a gay God?

    Needless to say, if I am Daryll, I snip my good, well merited association with that paramilitary group! ;)
  2. Misu

    Misu Hey, I saw that.

    Being it is a private organization, they can exclude whoever they want, as long as they don't violate civil rights. Last time I checked, athiests were not protected under the civil right's act.

    Sucks how that whole 'freedom of religion' thing seems to disappear, however.
  3. jamming

    jamming Banned

    Freedom of Religion, seems many think it reads "freedom from religion." Go Scouts!
  4. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    I am not a believer but back the Scouts right to require belief. Private organization should have the right to determine their own membership requirements.
  5. FrankF

    FrankF #55170-054

    The Boy Scouts are and always have been an organization that is closely aligned with the Christian church's beliefs. Christians (especially the ones on the far right) believe that homosexuality is _________ (fill in the blank). And no Christian is an aetheist.

    As a private organization, they are allowed to exclude non-Christians and homosexuals, and anybody they choose as long as they don't violate any civil rights laws.
  6. fritzmp

    fritzmp Fire Fire For Effect

    Scouts are not a right of inclusion and have rights as well. Your choice in life if it excludes you from the intent and guidelines of the organization, and are in conflict, and you choose to proceed and not be honest to your self and the organization, you are living a lie. To demand the organization to brake or bend fundamental founding princeables is also wrong. The two do neither any good. I am sure the Scouts feel that though Daryll may not believe in God, God believes in him and was a recipient of the moral foundation that he inherited as a Scout.

    He must go his way, if he is to be true to him self.
  7. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    Their rights to determine their membership do not mean we cannot choose to not contribute and/or not particpate as adult counselors, etc. That is the proper way to object to their policies.
  8. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member


    And Jamming, any belief in a higher deity?

    The Eagle Scout award isn't just a checkbox item, it's the BSA's highest honor. To think that you would qualify for such an honor without living up to the basic membership criteria of the organization implies a massive failure... either to communicate or to understand expectations. Perhaps both.

    But I agree, Darryl should abide by the rules.

    Darryl, pick [gl]Thor[/gl]! You can be at the forefront of the upcoming Norse God revival!

    Let's practice together, shall we...

    When someone sneezes, you say "Thor bless you."

    When something bad happens, you say "Oh, Thor, not again."

    When you're angry at something, you say "Thor damn it!"

    Plus you can carry a huge hammer anywhere you want under the pretense of practicing your religion.

    Pathetic rule, folks, whether legal or not, it's pretty pathetic.
  9. fritzmp

    fritzmp Fire Fire For Effect

    Just as Protestants are not running over to the Catholic Parish to drop a check in their plate or going to confession, true.
  10. fritzmp

    fritzmp Fire Fire For Effect

    No it's not. You may be by American Standards A good citizen living in the world, you may even get a Nobel prize, but you don't get Social Security check if your an Irishman from Ireland.

    Believe it or not people are entitled to their belief and to demand the organization to bend to pressure of inclusion directly in conflict to it's principals is just as intolerent.
  11. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    I am not arguing the legalities of this. For all I care, the BSA can remain the primitive dogma organization that they are till the day I die.

    What I question is the morals of this. The guy has to believe in God in order to be good enough to belong to BSA?

    Incidently, South Park had an episode regarding the gays in BSA. Ironically, Big Gay Al, who talks with a lisp, wears bright clothes, and does not hide his homosexuality, was booted from the BSA because they thought he was going to molest little kids.

    They bring this Patton wannabe who drills the kids and in the meantime takes pictures of them in the buff.

    Moral of the story? It's not your sexual preference that makes you a pedophile, it's individuals who are sick.

    Gays and atheists are none of the above.
  12. fritzmp

    fritzmp Fire Fire For Effect

    The Scouts don't want to have to placate the fears of the parents and it's not their job. I was a Scout and was at summer camp ware a scout leader from another troop hung him self wile waiting for the police to arrive after being busted for molesting a kid. Sorry ethics the Scouts don't even want the inference of danger to children and it's not their job to educate parents. Trying to, the result wold be the troops would die and the good work they do would die with it.

    Striate people out number Gays 9 to 1 and parents reasoning of Gays wanting to do such work leads to confusion on the minds of strait people.
  13. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    As an atheist, I don't have a problem with the BSA doing whatever they hell they want. Truth be told, the BSA does a lot of good in the community.

    Kicking out a 19 year old Eagle Scout over his religious stand werks for me. I was a Boy Scout..quit it around 14 or 15 because it was beginning to interfere in my fun. My son was also a Boy Scout, and he stayed with it until he was 17 and an Eagle Scout. That was purely his choice.

    The article specifically says he's a Boy Scout, and not an Explorer Scout. 19 and still in the Boy Scouts is enough reason to send him on his way IMHO.

    What I really have a hard time fathoming is how any atheist can take offense at the petty and ridiculous demands of any religiously oriented organization with which they choose to affiliate. Atheism is not some moral or ethical stance that has to be defended...if you're truly an atheist, it defends itself in your own logic. Now if the government should declare apostasy a crime, I'd still be inclined to keep my mouth shut...provided I wasn't compelled to set foot in a house of worship and pantomime obeissance.
  14. RRedline

    RRedline Veteran MMember

    Think about how silly that statement really is.

    They claim that they will accept ANY deity? Yeah, right. That is a bunch of PC bullshit. How about he decided to believe in an omnipotent space alien named Mr. Bojangles? Then would they accept him? Or does he have to believe in one of the gods on the Boy Scouts' list? And just where is that list? I would LOVE to see it.

    What I would like to know is why isn't this guy telling the Boy Scouts to shove their Christian, anti-homosexual club us their asses? I certainly would if I were in his position.

    And even if he said, "Oh, you're all right...I do believe in God after all. What was I thinking? Yeah, that's right...I believe in God now." Then would those asshats be okay with him? It sounds to me that they don't really want him to BELIEVE in God. They just want him to ENDORSE God.

    Where's that middle finger smiley, ethics? :(
  15. RRedline

    RRedline Veteran MMember

    I agree with you completely. I suggested an omnipotent space alien, but Thor, Ra, Athena, etc., those would all be wonderful choices. They would then counter with a list of gods from which to choose from. Of course, they would love to just say, "You have to be Christian," but even they have to be PC. Unfortunately, atheists are regarded as scumbags by most of the world, so nobody cares when they get shunned.

    I understand that what the BSA are doing may be legal, but they are no different from the KKK, in my opinion. They preach INTOLERANCE, just in a different form. "Atheists aren't good enough for our stupid ass club."

    This guy should make up his own god or use a mythological one. Then when they say he can't do that(and they will), he should tell them that their STUPID ASS club is not good enough for HIM! It's their loss because this guy must be pretty decent to have been selected for the honor.

    They just want an endorsement. If they truly wanted him to actualyl BELIEVE in a god, they would just kick him out and not bother asking any questions. Nobody goes from being an atheist to having devout faith in a religion over night. So what if he just tells them he believes in God? They can't prove that he doesn't.
  16. Steve

    Steve Is that it, then?

    I was in the Boy Scouts and the organization only requires belief in a higher power; there were Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc. All services were pretty non-denominational...not that a bunch of teenage boys paid much attention.

    Freedom OF religions means that the beliefs or non-beliefs of others cannot be forced upon private individuals, or private organizations.

    It does NOT mean, as the American public so often misconstrues the phrase, that the practice of religion is prohibited except in churches.

    Jews are not allowed to Knights of Columbus; Hindus cannot be Masons; athiests cannot be Boy Scouts; schools may not teach religious doctrines. These are all part and parcel of our society and represent the broad extent of freedoms granted us.

    The issues are not with this young man's accomplishments as a Boy Scout; the sole issue lies with his professed athiesm, which is anathema to the Boy Scouts' codes of conduct. As a private organization, they excercise the right to freedom of religion no less than each one us does, including the young fellow who practices no religion at all.
  17. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Stevent, no one is saying anything about legalities. I believe we all agree that as a private organization, they can do what they want.

    What gets us, however, is how exclusive BAS is towards certain American children.
  18. Sunriser13

    Sunriser13 Knee Deep in Paradise

    The legality of what the BSA is doing is not in question.

    The crime to me is that with all the complaints we have with our youth today, this young man is an exemplary example of so many of the values we hold dear: citizenship, intelligence, perseverence, charity, honesty, and leadership. It's a shame he can't be allowed to remain to teach others these qualities...
  19. fritzmp

    fritzmp Fire Fire For Effect

    Start a fork organization.

    The guidelines are the guidelines. I don't tell Organized Religion how to run their affairs nor do I attend. No crime no foul. You agree or you don't. Get on with your life.
  20. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Fritz, for the 3rd time, no one is challenging the laws of BAS.
    Yes, they are the guidelines, but the guidelines stinky-poo.

    The gripes are coming from the morality point of view.

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