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Citizens' Border Patrol?

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by mike, Nov 25, 2002.

  1. mike

    mike mesmerized

  2. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Good intention that has a lot of room for abuse.
     
  3. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Somebody has to do it. It's gotten way ugly and way violent on the border. The coyotes are being replaced by the drug cartels that find it hugely profitable to traffic in both drugs and people. Gunfights on the border are becoming more frequent, The Native American medical infrastructure is being ransacked as well as these people's homes and property, the delicate desert environment is being destroyed and middle easterners are finding it easy to get across the border as well. In fact 60 miles west of Douglas Arizona, one of the crossings is affectionately referred to as the 'Arab Road'.

    The border is so porous and the federal government has no intention of even attempting to secure it. I'm thinking the Ranchers and the Indians might have a better chance is they land mine it.
     
  4. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    I feel very strongly both ways. I think the border has to be patrolled. The Mexican government is not taking care of the security enough for us to keep an open border on the south of our country.

    On the other hand I am very concerned about the potential for abuse. I think the government had better organize it so there is some control. An armed force under private command should not be an option.
     
  5. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    As I pointed out in this thread the federal government, whose responsibility this is, has no intention of doing anything about this. In the links I provided above, we can see it's getting very nasty down there. This is going to turn into a shooting war...hell, it's already started, they killed a park ranger in August and the shooting is escalating. If the federal government hasn't the inclination to protect its citizens, they have to be able to protect themselves.
     
  6. Jedi Writer

    Jedi Writer Guest

    The poll numbers are reflective of how strong Americans feel about the issue of illegal immigration, especially those who live along or near our southern border. I really sympathize with and share a lot of their frustration.

    However, militia patrols, or whatever name you it is a bad idea--period.

    You would end up with a "militia" dominated by a minority of cowboys and vigilantes and lots of people on both sides of the border will be injured, abused, or die--but the illegal aliens are especially at risk.

    Besides when you are talking about illegal aliens and specifically talking about those that cross the border from Mexico you are talking about the vast majority of them being people who coming here simply for jobs or economic reasons. Yes it is a crime to cross the border illegally but that is about as close as being criminals most of those folks will ever be. They are overwhelmingly honest hard working people.

    If we concentrated on enforcing our existing laws and tightening up what any immigrant needs to "legally" work in this country the flow would slow to a trickle.

    To put it simply, if either there were no jobs available for them or they had to obtain <i>legitimate</I> documents to obtain work they would not come here illegally.
     
  7. Sierra Mike

    Sierra Mike The Dude Abides Staff Member

    I agree. I think a lot of these folks would be killed by some of the adrenaline junkies out there who think it would be great fun to shoot at Mexicans.

    SM
     
  8. jamming

    jamming Banned

    How about a Border Watch, with Cellphones to just report illegal crossings? How about allowing local law enforcement to arrest them until immigration picks them up? Some places local law enforcement is instructed not to pick them up. How about making the locals enforce the laws we have instead of allowing it to be optional?
     
  9. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Who then is going to protect our citizens living near the border if the federal government refuses to act? The crime rate on the part of the illegals passing through is steadily climbing. What would you have the Americans do? Move?

    In this piece by old George Putnam, he details the makeup of one of these organizations.
    The ranchers have to continually put up with cut fences, trash, fires, poached livestock and vandalism. The various small towns near the border have astronomical burglary and vandalism rates.

    Trent Lott was recently silenced on this issue after advocating the use of the military on the border.

    If we're against citizen militias on the border, please someone provide a viable alternative as the our government refuses to fulfill its obligation to its citizenry.
     
  10. Jedi Writer

    Jedi Writer Guest

    If we hire them they will come.

    Once again, if we don't hire illegal aliens they will stop coming--at least 90 percent of those we are talking about.

    It really is that simple.
     
  11. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    I'm sure that will provide great comfort to the people living near the border who deal with this daily.

    Obviously, if the economic incentive is denied, it stops. How do we propose to do that? We have the two predominant political parties vested in not stopping it. Laws here are not enforced, the INS is intentionally underfunded and at times instructed not to act and in the meantime Mexico is flat out encouraging it as a very significant part (almost one third) of the Mexican GDP is money sent to Mexico by illegals working here.

    If we have a government that lacks the will to act, how would you propose we stop providing the employment incentive? Put every small business that hires them on the honor system?

    Jedi, you live in tha LA area, how would you suggest we stop the caterers, the restaurants, the construction companies, the carwashes and the landscape companies from doing this?
     
  12. mike

    mike mesmerized

    **update**
    http://www.azstarnet.com/border/br-12022002militia.html

    "Tombstone militia will risk arrest"

    Group to patrol stations set up to aid entrants
    By Ignacio Ibarra
    ARIZONA DAILY STAR

    The leader of Tombstone's fledgling citizens militia says the organization intends to conduct its operations on public lands, patrol routes leading to water stations and have volunteers apply for state-issued concealed weapons permits.

    "We're stepping onto public lands, and I dare the government to come and arrest 50 people," said Chris Simcox, owner of the Tombstone Tumbleweed, a weekly newspaper, and organizer of a citizens militia he now calls the Civil Homeland Defense.

    The goal of the organization is to deter terrorists, criminals, drug dealers and illegal entrants, he said.

    Its initial strategy will be to conduct patrols in areas where humanitarian water stations and beacons have been established to aid illegal entrants. The group will be "humanely assisting those who are attracted to them by way of making sure they have water and blankets and any immediate medical attention they may need," he said.

    They will then be placed under citizen's arrest and turned over to the Border Patrol."




    Now let's say the US Gov't, in all of its' infinite wisdom, does decide to police its' borders-like say utilizing the Guard or any other agency-how quickly would the Mexican Gov't scream about us taking drastic actions??.......
     
  13. Andy

    Andy ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Being a fromer resident of Arizona, I can attest to the lengths that illegals will go to just to get into this country.

    I used to live in a small, po-dunk town called Marana. (actually it was more like more like Avra Valley, blame the zip code system;)).
    Not more than a few thousand yards to my immediate west was one of the main corridors that the illegals would use on their journey toward Phoenix.
    Every few weeks or so, I would see a group walking thorugh during the day, and every once in a while I would hear the wildliife get suddenly "quiet" in the dead of night, a sure sign that someone was traveling through.
    Not to mention the countless dead illegals that would be found in the summer due to the heat. (I had found 2 at different times while out riding my ATV, not a pretty sight.)

    As for the group in Tombstone, and parts south of where I was taking the "law into thier own hands", I am not surprised one bit...

    Arizonans have always deemed themselves more (patriotic?) than other states.
    And why should they not feel so?
    It would seem the Border Patrol is grossly under-manned in those areas, and no relief in sight. Drugs and illegals are pouring over its borders on a daily basis, the only solutions seemed to be at the time I was out there were putting up radar-balloons and ground sensors, but they also seem to be bypassed easily.....

    Personally, I think that the editor of that paper/group leader, has done a fine job of at least ONE thing, pointing out the fact that our southern borders are NOT as secure as we would wish them to be, in these times of terrorists out to do harm to America.
    Maybe the authorities would do better by working WITH this group (deputizing and training them, under Arizona law), rather than critisizing them, whilst doing nothing themselves to stop the flood of illegals.

    As for the argument of not hiring illegals in the first place, that is all fine and dandy, but most Americans would scoff at the work that these people are dying for (literally!) to get here and be paid a minimal sum to perform.

    We can't even get kids to work at McDonalds these days, because they think that they are entitled to "something better", how are you going to get some lazy, video-game generation kid out in a field to pick cotton or vegetables?( both main reasons for the illegals migration INTO Arizona every year.)
     
  14. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    It would happen over night, and it wouldn't just be the Mexican government. The U.S. government is a complicit in this. The democratic politicians want it as do the republican politicians. IMHO, as soon as there are a few more amnesties, Fox or whomever is in charge in Mexico at the time and the American government will jointly announce a free trade zone in the southwest with a completely open border where we are all "free" to go south to look for work or live and they are free to come north for the same.
    I don't think you finished your first sentence...they would scoff at doing the work for that amount of money.

    All of the jobs the illegals are doing now, were being done by someone here before they got here, it was just getting done for more money. As to the crops getting picked, there was and still is visitor work program just for that purpose...not that the legal venue is getting much excercise these days.
     
  15. Wacko

    Wacko Helllllooo Nurrrse

    If the government can't do the job, then a well regulated malitia might just be the ticket. Allow the citizens to patrol as a malitia. Being that I spent some time in New Mexico, and I now live in California I have seen the problem first hand. I hope that Arizona has better luck than California is having.
     
  16. Jedi Writer

    Jedi Writer Guest

    The real cost of anything is that the effort, time, and money you spend doing something is effort, time, and money that could be spent elsewhere.

    The impetus for the border watch and militia is our government is not doing their job and to better prevent the number of illegal aliens crossing our SW border. Americans in those areas feel very passionate about the issues and are overwhelmingly for the militia style border watch.

    But all the militia would be doing is running around plugging or shoring up leaks in a gigantic dam that will perpetually be springing new and different leaks. So what is the solution? We need a new dam in the form of having the government responsible. We can do that by at least enforcing existing laws and probably making tougher ones and enforcing those.

    The law should be crafted to effectively stop the widespread uncontrolled job market. Meanwhile in the battle for hearts and minds and in the interest of our Latin America friends, especially our good neighbor Mexico we should never stop preaching that if Mexicans had decent jobs and opportunities in their own country they would have no motivation to come here to work just as that would be true if there was only limited work for them here and they had to be properly documented to obtain it.

    Why is our government not responsive so far? In part is because we spend our most passionate and time consuming efforts trying to police the border instead of turning our efforts to the government to tighten up on all types of immigration and more rigidly regulate and enforce right to work laws and regulations in this country.

    If people would focus on holding the government responsible they would be. At least much more than they are now.

    So what do you want, a militia band aide for the problem or a cure of the ailment by getting our government off their rear ends?
     

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