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Can We Let GM/FORD FAIL PLEASE!?!?!?

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by ethics, Nov 7, 2008.

  1. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    Oh, I see my experience with an American cars, especially my own is dismissed by you. The truth, especially if tends to contradicts your opinion should be mocked. But your experience with American cars is the word. The man has spoken. The Brooklyn sage of cars speaks. Please.

    As for the Japanese not having a bad year or decade, perhaps not in your short life span and memory, but for at least a decade and I would say possibly up to two when Japanese cars were first introduced into the united states they were crap. The first Honda had a motorcycle engine and broke down every day. In fact overall just as we now laugh at Chinese quality so it was with all Japanese products when they first started to appear in large quality. The standing joke was what junk and second rate Japanese products were. The term "Made in Japan" was actually a colloquial joke at one time for meaning junk.
     
  2. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    Oh, I see my experience with an American cars, especially my own is dismissed by you. The truth, especially if tends to contradicts your opinion should be mocked. But your experience with American cars is the word. The man has spoken. The Brooklyn sage of cars speaks. Please.

    As for the Japanese not having a bad year or decade, perhaps not in your short life span and memory, but for at least a decade and I would say up to two when Japanese cars were first introduced into the united states they were crap. The first Honda had a motorcycle engine and broke down every day. In fact overall just as we now laugh at Chinese quality so it was with all Japanese products when they first started to appear in large quality. The standing joke was what junk and second rate Japanese products were. The term "Made in Japan" was actually a colloquial joke at one time for meaning junk.

    ADDENDUM: Read the posts don't skip over them. I said it was both a perception AND a problem. (Not just a perception.)
     
  3. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    No, spunky, I wasn't even replying to you but Damon who said that it was a perception of a problem because his experience with the cars was fabulous. I gave him just ONE experience that wasn't. I am not nearly the only one on this.
     
  4. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    The proof is in the sales, nothing else. OF COURSE there are anecdotal experiences one way or the other. But by and large, the Toyotas and Hondas have run longer, better, over HISTORY, as indicated by better sales, and better resale values.

    There's probably some truth that Detroit has started producing better cars recently. They did that with Saturn too, then let it fall flat. Again, HISTORICALLY Detroit has done this very thing with all their cars. If Honda and Toyota had done this with THEIR cars, produced a couple decades of poor quality vehicles and then started bringing up the quality, I'd expect that the public trust would not be there either. Business 101, hello?

    There's a reason why Toyotas and Hondas have traditionally held better resale values, and have historically run longer and better. It's because THEY'RE BETTER CARS.

    Now some would have us believe we're un-American for buying a better car for less. I say it's capitalism at its finest, and we should not prop up failing companies. Propping up failing companies invites mediocrity. The strong survive in capitalism. Propping up failing companies is what's un-American. And this bullshit about American-made? Don't even bring me that crap. Hondas and Toyos are made in America, by American labor. And for what parts and what-not that are imported, well, GM, Ford and Chrysler ALSO do that.

    What this is all about isn't American made or import or whatever. It's all a bunch of union crap slung around. That's the hard truth. Chrysler, GM and Ford are failing because the unions sucked them dry, and management sucked them dry. This should have been seen when they signed those super-sweet benefits deals 6 or 8 years ago. And now that they ran these companies into the dirt, they want your tax money to pay for it. THAT is not capitalist. THAT is not American.

    Screw the big three, and screw UAW. Let them go down in flames.
     
  5. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Nicely said.
     
  6. Arc

    Arc Full Member

    You werent replying to me in your post labeled:

    Posted in reply to Arcs starting Oh, I see my experience with an

    And then you stated:

    Then when I challenge your post above you say it wasnt directed in response to me? Ok. Whatever you say.

    And I missed your response to:

    I've been saying over and over here and in other threads flat out that overall, or to rephrase for clarity, most Japanese cars by a wide margin in numbers of models are better than American cars, but not all Japanese cars are better than all American cars and you can include pickup as part of "cars" or make it a separate category and you won't admit that? Wow, just amazing.
     
  7. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Nice post! Including the part I didn't quote.

    The Big Three auto manufacturers have just discovered a new tit to suck dry: the American taxpayers. Everything from now on will be "how can we get the most money from Congress?" rather than "how can we fix our defective business model?"

    One sad result that I'm certain we'll see: GM will fail, and then probably Chrysler too, and the government and taxpayers won't get the loans paid back because we'll be holding an empty bag.

    It's time to shoot the sick horse in the head and put it out of its misery.
     
  8. damonlab

    damonlab Veteran Member

    Lets assume the Ford/GM/Chrysler all go under and there is no more U.S. auto manufacturing. Lets additionally assume that every other American made product goes under due to people preferring to try to save a dollar by buying foreign made products.

    Where does that put the U.S.? I will tell you where... it puts the U.S. as a dependent to foreign countries. Suppose that foreign countries then try to unite to place an embargo against the U.S. due to our debts or for any other reason. That would kill the U.S. It is imperative to our national security that we maintain our own manufacturing facilities to prevent a situation like this form happening.
     
  9. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    LOL. You're not listening. Honda, Toyota, they are US manufacturers.

    While we're assuming, let's make some more assumptions...

    Let's assume we give the big three a huge pile of money. Let's assume we give them even more money, because they suck and don't manage their money well, and since we're giving them money the unions think they can continue to act like asses and the management can continue to take huge bonuses. Let's assume we give them even more money. And then let's assume we give them more money. And THEN, since they are not companies that have to compete with good products because we've been giving them money, they go belly up anyway.

    Where does that put the US? The same place as if we had NOT given them money, only deeper in public debt.

    That would kill the US. It's imperative to our national security that we let bad companies fail.
     
  10. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    I think we're gonna lose GM and Chrysler whether we support them or not. The only difference is how much we throw in the hole before we run out of patience or run out of money. Maybe with GM and Chrysler out of business perhaps Ford will do better by picking up some of the business.

    And how are cars any different than steel? We've already had most of the steel industry move offshore. Isn't that equally imperative to our national security? I don't see anybody whining about that...
     
  11. cmhbob

    cmhbob Did...did I do that? Staff Member

    See, that's an alarmist discussion from the get-go. Even if some of the Big Three go under this year, you're assuming that they'll die completely, and I don't think that's reasonable.

    If GM, for instance, files Chapter 11, they reorganize, and keep going. Shed some units, and under-performing divisions, that are then free to re-start on their own, if they're viable. There are probably divisions that are viable on their own, but are bleeding too much money from GM as a whole due to inefficiencies.

    I think that's what most of us are saying: that the Big Three, as they are currently organized and run, cannot keep running, and that it is not the responsibility of the rest of the country to fix that.
     
  12. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Bada bing bada boom. The world needs cars and trucks. GM actually has a better manufacturing infrastructure than Toyota, it's just that they've intentionally built fail into their products.

    GM won't go away, but the mindset and the paradigm has to in order for them to succeed. Once the union bullshit goes away, a new paradigm will take hold and they will be staged to kick Toyota's ass. The depth and breadth that they've interlaced the plant floor with IT is staggering. The only thing holding them back is the bloody depth that the UAW has strangled them. They are still the 800 lb. gorilla when it comes to auto manufacturing. They just need to be freed up to turn out vehicles with 200K + miles built in.
     
  13. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Just how is the 800 lb. GM gorilla going to get the 1,500 lb. UAW gorilla off its back?
     
  14. Copzilla

    Copzilla dangerous animal Staff Member

    Bankruptcy, that's how. Starts everything from ground zero.
     
  15. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Could GM file bankruptcy and then reorganize their business without unionization? I mean, would the unions stand for it? Could the unions prevent a non-union GM? Could GM operate through a boycott where other unions (e.g. the truckers) prevented delivery of materials and prevented transport of finished products? Would members of all unions refuse to buy GM products?

    There's nothing I'd like better than a non-union GM but I don't see how that's possible. I've just assumed that the disease (unions) would kill the host (GM etc.).

    Or would it work that there would still be unions but they'd take a smaller bite? A non-fatal bite?
     
  16. Coot

    Coot Passed Away January 7, 2010

    Yep, that's the ticket. Only our happy asses elected dems in spades and they're all about the union. We're going to see this shit dragged out for at least 4 years.
     
  17. damonlab

    damonlab Veteran Member

    Without unions to make sure that workers get paid decent wages, who will have money to buy anything other than the fatcats on wallstreet?
     
  18. Greg

    Greg Full Member

    Why do you think that unions are necessary to ensure that workers get decent wages? It seems that Toyota etc. American auto workers are getting along okay without unions, aren't they?
     
  19. Biker

    Biker Administrator Staff Member

    At one point in time, the unions were necessary. Today, they're an outdated embarassment, a stone around the neck of any business. The only union members that get decent wages are those at the top of the food chain. If you honestly think the union has the worker's best interest in mind, you're sadly mistaken.

    You know what Damonlab? I would suggest you ditch the dogma and sit down and research the facts on all this. The Pro-Union, rah rah BS is getting rather old. Have you ever worked in a union job? I have. And let me tell you this one major truth. The union is out for itself and NOT the worker.
     
  20. eakes

    eakes Registered User

    Looking at the 'viability plan' presented by GM and Chrysler last week, it is obvious that neither will nor vision exists exists in Detroit to make the necessary changes for their survival. The Detroit automakers have had the wrong business plan for years which could be summarized as: "We're losing $100 on every car we sell, but we will make it up in volume".

    For much too long they bought union peace by granting most every perk the union demanded. This worked OK as they merely passed along the cost to car buyers, then they got competition (Toyoto, Nissan, Honda, etc). Now price became a real factor in their sales as they offered deep discounts to sell autos. The biggest problem with the union was not the direct wages but the perks and work rules. Changing production lines and techniques became almost an impossibility, layoffs would not reduce labor costs, unproductive lines could not easily be shutdown.

    The companies need to agile and swift to meet new demands and employ new means of production techniques which present union rules will not permit. Old management needs to be weeded and inovation and new ways of doing business put into play. This will not happen in the status quo no matter how much tax payer money is poured into Detroit. Bankruptcy is the only answer, outsiders must move in and clean out the place in order to start anew.

    The new Detroit will have a union, but it will be very different. The old perks and work rules have to go. The new company must be a lean, mean machine with the ability to respond rapidly to changing conditions.
     

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