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Bush Administration to cut utility aid

Discussion in 'Issues Around the World' started by Misu, Dec 12, 2002.

  1. Misu

    Misu Hey, I saw that.

    Story here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021211/ap_on_re_us/heating_woes_3

    I thought this was a worthy topic to discuss. Our country is going through a really bad time economically. Everytime you turn on the tv, you hear about one large company or another having to lay off THOUSANDS of people. We're starting winter, and so far, it's been pretty brutal for much of the country.

    So how can this make sense? How can it make sense to cut utility aid, which people need in order to stay WARM this winter?

    I don't understand where politicians expect for us to get money from, when many of us have lost our jobs and cannot find another one because of all the layoffs. My school is going to raise tuition again - something like 20% over last year!!! - and yet, the school President just gave himself a $93k/year RAISE, making him the HIGHEST PAID University President, I believe in the entire COUNTRY.

    Is it just me, or are the 'little people' of this country getting majorly screwed?
     
  2. ethics

    ethics Pomp-Dumpster Staff Member

    Why is this a federal concern? I thought that this was a state to state issue?

    I could be wrong, of course...
     
  3. dmdvt

    dmdvt Guest

    By the time I got to the end of this article my blood pressure was through the roof.
    How can Bush even suggest cutting funding for the people that need it the most.
    Unemployment is up and I am sure this is only the beginning.

    <small>as quoted from the article, </small>
    "Vermont would slash its average heating grant from $525 to $400."

    This affects a good portion of my neighbors.
    With heating fuel prices going up and winter being as cold as it has been.
    This will not even heat through the next month never mind through the season.
     
  4. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Passed Away Aug. 19, 2006

    Ah, you folks just don't understand.

    It is necessary to cut programs for the poor to finance tax cuts for the rich. Moreover, if they are poor it is their fault. They should get off their butts and do something. This is the Reopublican creed, and we are going to live with it a while longer..
     
  5. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    Damn, you all just don't understand. First we cut off the extended benefits to the unemployed so they can't eat. Then we cut their assistance in heating. This way many of the poor and unemployed will starve or freeze to death, thereby eliminating the problem. Sheeesh, I have to explain everything.
     
  6. Ravenink

    Ravenink Veteran Member

    the more social programs the government cuts back on the better. that the money we pay in taxes will just be put in another coffer rather than returned to us is a tragedy. I do not mean to sound cold, but I don't work to pay other people's heating bills.
     
  7. Misu

    Misu Hey, I saw that.

    You're not paying taxes to pay other people's heating bills - you pay taxes so the government takes care of it's citizens. You'll still be paying that very same amount of money in taxes - perhaps more - and when the time comes for you to lose your job, the government is going to say "Sorry, lazy man - we're not giving you aid to feed yourself and your family or keep you warm this winter - we need more money, so get a job!"

    This grant is not the same thing as welfare - or at least what welfare has become, which is a lifestyle - this grant is there to help those in times of need. Fuel costs for utilities are going up, in fact EVERYTHING is going up, and jobs are being lost at an alarming rate. When are we going to hit the breaking point?

    <emall>edit: sorry if i dont make much sense - i'm doped up on nyquil so it's hard to put my thoughts into words</small>
     
  8. ShinyTop

    ShinyTop I know what is right or wrong!

    People are getting aid to help pay their heat who have been retired for 20 years. They cannot work and cannot get their pay increased. People are receiving aid who have worked all their lives and got laid off. People are receiving aid who worked for companies raped of all monies by their CEO's.

    Is there anybody receiving this aid that should and could be working? Probably. But we have people who need help in this country and providing heat for them is hardly luxury. I am happy your life is so completely perfect that you don't need help. But to begrudge people who need it is very cold.

    What would you do to help the retired couple who can't pay for heat? Come on, you don't want to help them, come up with a plan. Please tell us who you would designate to help them. Or would you rather they just die so they are no longer a burden. Let's hear your solution since you don't like what we are doing now.
     
  9. Ravenink

    Ravenink Veteran Member

    both of you make sense. my problem however is in my view the government's job is to create those few laws required for a society to operate, provide for national defense, etc. It's job is not to keep the heat on. If people had not the foresight to prepare for winter (hint..it comes every year) then I have no sympathy for them. Do I want them to die? No. Let them stay in coats, or let them go to heated places. waffle house has heat 24 hours a day. Or can they not afford food either?

    To answer shiny's post, my life is far from perfect, and if the government wanted to provide me a place to stay I'd love it. For the moment however, I am quite content to be doing exactly what the people who can't afford heat (such as me) should be doing. Improvising.
     
  10. LissaKay

    LissaKay Oh ... Really???

    I work. Full time, often overtime. I am seriously considering applying for assistance from my local utility company this winter. My job pays 36 cents an hour more than it did one year ago. I just got a promotion (Shiny ... the door opened!) and with it ::drum roll please:: a 50 cent an hour raise. I think I just caught up with the increase in the cost of living. But that is national average COLA, not MY COLA. I have a teen-age boy with a voracious appetite and horrendous medical bills. My car and renter's insurance went up 15% and 20% respectively. My rent increase is effective this month as well. My electric bill has nearly double in three years.

    I've cut my cable back to basic, removed added services from my phone bill, if it weren't for the discount I get on my DSL, I would cut that back to dial up. In the winter, I keep the thermostat on 64 and we bundle up in blankets. We eat lots of Hamburger Helper and Ramen noodles, but no cookies or ice cream. My ten year old car is paid in full, but it is nearing its end of life and is 2000 miles overdue for an oil change. I owe the hospital $800 and my son's doctor $228 right now ... that's what's left after the insurance pay out.

    I work, I pay taxes, but if I get assistance from the utility company to pay their bill, I'm lazy and deserve to freeze and starve to death?

    It's so comforting to know that there are people who believe that.
     
  11. Ravenink

    Ravenink Veteran Member

    never called you lazy, never said you deserve to freeze. merely that it is not the government's role to make it so that you don't any more than they already do.
     
  12. LissaKay

    LissaKay Oh ... Really???

    So ... just HOW, pray tell, do you propose that those who are struggling to make ends meet do that?

    I suppose you are also opposed to government funded college grants? And funding for public schools? Day cares? Food stamps? (Which I am also about to apply for) The government should do nothing to help anyone in any circumstances?

    How .... noble.
     
  13. Misu

    Misu Hey, I saw that.

    Ravenink, I think you're entitled to your opinion, but in this case, I believe you're mistaken.

    The role of our government is to take care of us. The role of our government is to ensure that all of us can live basically healthy lives - we can't do that if our government cannot stabelize the economy. Since the government has failed to stabelize the economy, what are we expected to do?

    Not every house is built with a fireplace - and even if that were the case, there isn't enough lumber to keep one warm. Since the demand for lumber would go up, so would it's cost.

    What many of these large companies are doing is wrong - they see the demand for heat go up, so they start to raise the cost. They see the demand for insurance and shelter and food go up, they start raising the cost. For profit. What our government needs to do is throw some of it's weight around and stop these companies from taking advantage of bad situations. The government is made up of people like you and me - we put them in positions of power so they could work FOR US. And if we need help, that's what their job is, then.

    Who expected these ice storms to hit as hard as they did? Hell - the power companies STILL haven't returned power to nearly 10% of people in some of those states hardest hit - how is one to prepare for something like that?

    Cost of living is going up faster than average salaries. This is a fact. How can one prepare for such increases when one's salary is basically the same?
     
  14. Ravenink

    Ravenink Veteran Member

    Respectfully, each person has a unique situation and as such there is a unique for each person. Such is the nature of personal responsibility.

    Government funded college grants? Yep, against them. Though if a government had a distinct interest in fostering the Jeffersonian concept of a natural aristocracy there would be some merit to the idea. In its present form...abysmal.

    Public schools? I find the idea of universal right to education a farce. It is wasted on the common man and has caused more problems than it has solved.

    Day Cares? Those who cannot take care of their own kids should have the responsibility to not have them in the first place.

    Food Stamps? Opposte totally. Subsistence level eating is not difficult financially. If it is too much of a burden, I know those who grow their own food at quite a savings.

    Social welfare programs are outside of the provision of good government in my opinion. As for circumstances people find themselves in, I would refer to them to existentialist philosophy and the concept of self-causation.
     
  15. Techie2000

    Techie2000 The crowd would sing:

    Giving help to the poor who needs it is almost as stupid as giving rapists life sentences or imprisoning CEOs who end up screwing their company out of millions of dollars causing economic instability...
     
  16. Ravenink

    Ravenink Veteran Member

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    said by techie2000:

    Giving help to the poor who needs it is almost as stupid as giving rapists life sentences or imprisoning CEOs who end up screwing their company out of millions of dollars causing economic instability...
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    And this has what to do with the price of tea in china?
     
  17. LissaKay

    LissaKay Oh ... Really???

    So ... you are saying that assistance to get a college education is wrong. But if someone can't earn enough to subsist with minimum wage, the government should not help them either?

    The people don't even deserve an education at all?

    So ... how do we get jobs with no education?

    Gee .. it must have been nice to have been born with a silver spoon in your mouth. I hope for your sake your words do not ever come back to haunt you.

    Have you ever considered that the return on the investments the government makes in providing college grants, ensuring free public education for all and assisting those with children with daycare costs so they can work and get OFF welfare and become productive members of society more than pays for itself?

    Or was my first impression of your words and attitude that the "have-nots" should just curl up and die and quit being a burden on YOU right on the money? (Pun partially intended)
     
  18. Techie2000

    Techie2000 The crowd would sing:

    Well you see, the CEOs each year buy a certain amount of Chinese tea. They like to drink the stuff and give it to their employees. However when the company goes out of buisness he can't afford Chinese tea anymore. Because of the decrease of demand for the Chinese tea, the price goes down...
     
  19. Ravenink

    Ravenink Veteran Member

    Ok, first let us get this out of the way. Please do not presume to know anything about my life. Not only is it bad form in a debate such as this it is quite frankly rather rude. If you cannot continue this debate without resorting to personal attacks then I would suggest that you not continue it at all. I come here to discuss things in a rational manner, and while things may become heated I will not be subjected to insinuations about my background.


    Now,

    I would not say that a child deserves no education at all. It is neccessary to function as a member of society to have some degree of literacy. This should however be the domain of parents. If a parent is not held responsible for their child's education and evolution into an adult then what good are they?

    Once basic literacy is taught the job of education should fall to the individual. Many have been succesful that way and if someone is of so little natural ability that they are incapable of learning a simple trade on their own perhaps they should not have anything more than a subsistence living. I prefer people to succeed or fail on their own merits, not some absurd idea of governmental parenting.

    Have I considered the argument you suggest? Yes I have and I have rejected it utterly as any empirical analysis of the claim will show it to be false.
     
  20. LissaKay

    LissaKay Oh ... Really???

    I see ... you believe that it is possible for someone to teach themselves to be an engineer or a doctor without benefit of an educational institution? Or should those jobs be reserved for the children of the rich who can afford to send them to college with no assistance?

    Or that I should be staying home to teach my child rudimentary education, basic literacy, math, etc? And who then will pay the bills and buy us food?

    One last question before I retire for the evening ...

    Just what color is the sky in your world?
     

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