[ethics]

You do something like this.

U.S. Commandos Free 2 Hostages From Somali Pirates

Aside from the obvious about Seal Team Six kicking ass and chewing gum, one thing struck me over and over again... WHY THE HELL ARE YOU OVER THERE???? Yes, I get the humanitarian aspect, you want to help, but you do no such thing in some of the places, some of them will never ever let you do it and then kill you, rape you, or worse.

[Sierra Mike]

People are stupid. I've been following the reports, and the long and the short of it is, the pirates are total amateurs. They never had a chance, be it DEVGRU or an infantry platoon that went in. This was a cut-and-dried mission.

More telling is the ridiculous stuff some of the organizatons, like--wait for it--Doctors Without Borders are saying. Real dumb shit like, "We're glad the hostages were rescued, but we deplore that violence was used." Those jokers haven't changed a bit.

[ethics]

Sierra Mike, on 27 January 2012 - 03:35 AM, said:

People are stupid. I've been following the reports, and the long and the short of it is, the pirates are total amateurs. They never had a chance, be it DEVGRU or an infantry platoon that went in. This was a cut-and-dried mission.

More telling is the ridiculous stuff some of the organizatons, like--wait for it--Doctors Without Borders are saying. Real dumb shit like, "We're glad the hostages were rescued, but we deplore that violence was used." Those jokers haven't changed a bit.

Are you serious???? SO there are not doing anything like Perry reported about them in Chechnya, in shadows and in between themselves. Now it's wide out in the open. DWB is the PETA of doctors.

[Arc]

Sierra Mike, on 27 January 2012 - 03:35 AM, said:

People are stupid. I've been following the reports, and the long and the short of it is, the pirates are total amateurs. They never had a chance, be it DEVGRU or an infantry platoon that went in. This was a cut-and-dried mission.

In military terms the term "elite" get way over used and frequently inappropriately applied to units or organizations. Many "soldiers" consider themselves elite. It wouldn't surprise me that some 10th Mountain consider themselves elite in the military hierarchy.

Team SEAL Six certainly is elite. Ultimately so. Team Six is on an individual and as a collective unit way better than other SEALS, who are legitimately elite themselves so the term is somewhat a relevant one.

Delta is elite but I don't know if they have a specialized super elite within their organization that would be to "regular" Delta as SEAL Team Six is to "regular" SEALS.

The 160th SOAR stands alone among their peers as the best of the best. Even where there are small specialized units that rival the skill of the 160th SOAR, are all most to the man ex-160th or detached from it.

CIA SAD are potentially considering the mix of their recruits and the spectrum of their operators and their missions are highly elite.

Factoring in to the civilian perception of the type units we are discussing are greatly influenced by the military themselves. The Navy* are far and away the worse PR and self promoting whores of all the branches of the service. I'm talking from the Pentagon level, not from the actual SEALS or troops themselves.

* (Have you ever noticed that in all most air combat movies from Top Gun forward usually are about Navy fighter and aviators?) The original production first approached the Air Force for "Top Gun" but was turned down. The Navy jumped on it and they continue that attitude this day.)

It would be interesting to see a credible or reliable organizational chart that to some credibile definable degree rated the "eliteness" of those units who we will concede are genuinely elite. Finally it would be nice to see how close to the rating the actual performance of the units are. Probably in all cases they are not as good as advertised. (Please, please don't anyone try to think or say that I'm saying that these elite groups aren't really that elite. I'm clearly not saying that but I just want to make it clear.)

[Sierra Mike]

ethics, on 27 January 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

Are you serious???? SO there are not doing anything like Perry reported about them in Chechnya, in shadows and in between themselves. Now it's wide out in the open. DWB is the PETA of doctors.

They're twats. They were like that during PROVIDE COMFORT and for the moment or two they were involved with RESTORE HOPE. They're United Nations of NGOs.

[Sierra Mike]

Arc, Delta--long called the Combat Application Group--is the Army analog to DEVGRU, and they are essentially interchangeable as both are tier one operations. So is the AF 24 STS, though I don't know if they have the same capability as CAG/DEVGRU. Whether you send CAG or DEVGRU, you get the same results.

[Biker]

Been a while, but if I recall, 24 STS is part of JSOC (Task Force Ranger) and includes the combat controllers and para rescue.

[Arc]

Sierra Mike, on 27 January 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Arc, Delta--long called the Combat Application Group--is the Army analog to DEVGRU, and they are essentially interchangeable as both are tier one operations. So is the AF 24 STS, though I don't know if they have the same capability as CAG/DEVGRU. Whether you send CAG or DEVGRU, you get the same results.

If I understand you correctly you are saying that all of Delta is equivalent to ST6/DEVGRU and that Delta doesn't have the Army equivalent of the Navy's "regular" non-ST6/DEVGRU SEALS.

[Sierra Mike]

Biker, on 27 January 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

Been a while, but if I recall, 24 STS is part of JSOC (Task Force Ranger) and includes the combat controllers and para rescue.

TF-R was in Somalia, and as a task force, was stood down in 1993. JSOC is the subordinate component of USSOCOM, which directly controls all tier one assets. I believe 24 STS also has a DA slice of what used to be called "air commandos" back in the day. No idea if that component still exists, or if they just leverage 24 STS to support aviation operations for CAG and DEVGRU.

[Copzilla]

Army does have the equivalent of stock standard Seals (if there is such a thing), in actually two iterations. Rangers are brute force units that are very capable of this kind of operation, while the SF groups are highly specialized, and also very capable of this kind of operation.

Delta is very much super-elite, and operate well outside the boundaries of conventional warfare. You may try to compare ST6 to Delta, but I don't think there's a gnat's hair difference in their capabilities. ST6 has received a lot of great press lately, and good for them, but Delta tends to be clandestine. If you hear of one of their operations, it will most likely be "Special Forces units" as opposed to Delta. When I was at Bragg, it was common knowledge that they were being cycled in and out of South America, operations with the Contras, and the press was clueless. We'd see them running solo down the road with ruck sacks and long hippie hair, beards, etc, when they were stateside.

[Sierra Mike]

Arc, on 27 January 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

If I understand you correctly you are saying that all of Delta is equivalent to ST6/DEVGRU and that Delta doesn't have the Army equivalent of the Navy's "regular" non-ST6/DEVGRU SEALS.

You misunderstand.

The special operations community is broken out into tier one operators: CAG (the former Delta Force, SFOD-D, the D-Boys), the former DEVGRU (which is the former ST6, now redesignated but to what, I don't know), and 24 STS. This is run out of MacDill AFB, FL, and operates as essentially another separate service.

Below that are special operations forces that are controlled by their respective SO commands:

U.S. Army Special Operations Command (USASOC), Ft. Bragg, NC
Army Special Forces (comprised of multiple Special Forces Groups--SFGs--which in turn are comprised of about three battalions of Green Berets)
Army Rangers (Ft. Benning, GA)
160 SOAR (Ft. Campbell, KY, Savannah, GA)

Navy Special Warfare Command (NAVSPECWARCOM), Coronado, CA I believe
Navy SEALs
Some brand-new aviation element whose des I don't think I ever knew, since they're tiny
SOC-capable USMC elements

U.S. Air Force Special Operations Command (AFSOC), Hurlburt Field, FL
SOWs
The remaining STS groups (23 STS, etc.)

These units conduct the "usual" special operations missions--special reconnaissance, foreign internal defense, COIN, direct action, stablity and sustainment, etc., etc. The 160th is the only non-JSOC unit that crosses the lines due to their unique effectiveness, but there is another 160 component that supports CAG directly in certain circumstances, posted at the old Ft. Lewis, now a joint operations facility (Joint Base McCord/Lewis, I think it is). During these circumstances, SOCOM chops the affected 160 slice away from USASOC and controls them directly.

[Sierra Mike]

Copzilla, on 27 January 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Army does have the equivalent of stock standard Seals (if there is such a thing), in actually two iterations. Rangers are brute force units that are very capable of this kind of operation, while the SF groups are highly specialized, and also very capable of this kind of operation.

Delta is very much super-elite, and operate well outside the boundaries of conventional warfare. You may try to compare ST6 to Delta, but I don't think there's a gnat's hair difference in their capabilities. ST6 has received a lot of great press lately, and good for them, but Delta tends to be clandestine. If you hear of one of their operations, it will most likely be "Special Forces units" as opposed to Delta. When I was at Bragg, it was common knowledge that they were being cycled in and out of South America, operations with the Contras, and the press was clueless. We'd see them running solo down the road with ruck sacks and long hippie hair, beards, etc, when they were stateside.

Exactly so--the Army is very protective of the CAG, and still has never "officially" acknowledged its existence.

[Copzilla]

Oh, and I don't think the term "elite" is overused at all with regards to these units, and neither would anyone who actually saw them in operation, be they Delta, ST6, Seals, Rangers, SF, or even any of the standard RDF, who receive loads of aftermarket training in jungle, recon, LRRP, etc.

They're unbelievably capable. And standing them up against another world Army or unit shows their propensity for violence.

[Arc]

Sierra Mike, on 27 January 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

Exactly so--the Army is very protective of the CAG, and still has never "officially" acknowledged its existence.

Thanks to you and CopZ for taking all of the time to lay out all of the information presented. It's very interesting.

But all I asked or was inquiring about was the equivalency of Army Delta to Navy's ST6 and regular SEALS, (non-ST6.) And thanks to all the info the answer is:

Delta is the Army's equivalent to the Navy's ST6, period. Delta does not have the equivalent of regular SEALS. Delta is as mentioned strictly equivalent to just ST-6.

Thanks again for the good stuff.

[Sierra Mike]

I thought I answered your question directly in the first paragraph of my post. Tier one operations get conducted the same way, no matter which service provides the muscle.

"Regular" SEALs, as you say, are the same as Rangers. You don't seem to be aware of the compatibility between the units. SEALs conduct mostly maritime-related special operations evolutions in support of the Navy, and have a heavy emphasis on DA, just like the Rangers, though the Rangers are more involved in land component operations.

Army Special Forces does much of the same thing, but they have a much deeper mission profile than the SEALs or the Rangers.

[Arc]

Sierra Mike, on 27 January 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

I thought I answered your question directly in the first paragraph of my post. Tier one operations get conducted the same way, no matter which service provides the muscle.

"Regular" SEALs, as you say, are the same as Rangers. You don't seem to be aware of the compatibility between the units. SEALs conduct mostly maritime-related special operations evolutions in support of the Navy, and have a heavy emphasis on DA, just like the Rangers, though the Rangers are more involved in land component operations.

Army Special Forces does much of the same thing, but they have a much deeper mission profile than the SEALs or the Rangers.

Thanks again for the effort and info. If there is or was a misunderstanding by me sorry if that generated extra work.

I all ready understood all that was posted before hand with one exception. That was strictly confined to the fact I knew that there were regular SEALS and then there was within but separate the super special elite ST-6. I knew that Delta was equivalent to ST-6. What I didn't know and was simply trying to find out was did Delta also have within Delta the equivalent of regular SEALS. They do not as clearly explained by you and CopZ. Again thank you.

I am familiar with the other stuff. I was familiar with Delta. I've been around or exposed to Delta in the past on a "social" level to a light degree and then on indirect formal basis based strictly upon reading reports. Last time was three years ago. A friend of mine was Army and he was recruited for Delta--I don't know the specifics. But for some reason--again the specifics of the why was not explained to me, understandably,--the Army wanted him instead to "try out" for Special Forces. It was implied that if he qualified for Special Forces than in a year or two he could if his performance in Special Forces cut the mustard move to Delta. That was where he really wanted to go. He was an impressive guy. He was 25 and I told his father, who was part of the fraternity that to go from the Army into Delta at that age seemed a bit on the young side from what I understood things to be. But his Dad seemed to disagree. We didn't obviously go into detail.

Strangely or coincidently enough I really never asked or found out what exact unit or branch of the Army he was in. It just was never of interest and didn't come up. He was however internally famous for his actions in Iraq. He was a guy who smoked some incredible number of bad guys as mortar specialist. He had a big rep. He apparently could so to speak use a mortar with the mortar equivalency of a sniper. I've since lost contact and don't know what happened to him. I've asked his dad about him but his dad doesn't say anything. I to know that in Special Forces training or qualifications he severely hurt himself and had to be hospitalized but he made a full recovery and returned to the field. As to what I do not know.

However, I've never been exposed to SEALS socially or in formal reports and structure. I was pretty uninformed about them. That was the weakness in my understanding and what raised the question once the clarity of the difference between ST-6 and regular SEALS was made crystal clear to me--before the thread.

[Sierra Mike]

You still don't understand.

DEVGRU has nothing to do with the SEALs any longer. The same way CAG has nothing to do with Special Forces any longer.

In the early days, DEVGRU was ST6. CAG was Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta. Both units reported to the services' major component commands, NAVSPECWARCOM and USASOC.

Now they don't. Because they've been taken out of the "standard" special operations community and made tier one operators. Now they report to JSOC, and have nothing to do with their former services.

[ethics]

What have you people done with my thread????

[Arc]

Sierra Mike, on 27 January 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

You still don't understand.

DEVGRU has nothing to do with the SEALs any longer. The same way CAG has nothing to do with Special Forces any longer.

In the early days, DEVGRU was ST6. CAG was Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta. Both units reported to the services' major component commands, NAVSPECWARCOM and USASOC.

Now they don't. Because they've been taken out of the "standard" special operations community and made tier one operators. Now they report to JSOC, and have nothing to do with their former services.

Yes I understand all that you said, even though I didn't ask for any of it. None of it. (Except for simple one simple narrow question.*) I never even used the term DEVGRU or asked about it. However, as mentioned before thank you. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. As expressed before I appreciate all the time and effort you put into such a detailed and useful road map despite the fact I wasn't asking about most of what you supplied. But I DO APPRECIATE it!!! I really do.

*Not all Navy SEALS are part of the special super elite unit within the Navy SEALS formerly known as ST-6 and colloquially referred to as Navy SEAL TEAM SIX. All Delta members are roughly equivalent to the Navy SEAL TEAM SIX in terms of elitism and level of skills. There are no Army or Delta equivalent of regular SEALS, (Non TEAM SIX LEVEL SEAL types) in Delta.

[Allene]

You should get SM to write a booklet of military acronyms and donate a freebie to GA. The surplus can sell for 99 cents each.

ethics, on 27 January 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

What have you people done with my thread????