Is the idea we came from space aliens any more valid...

[Techie2000]

than the idea we were created by a god? This question is of course prompted by the recent cloning controversy and the "cult" involved with it. Personally as an atheist, both ideas have the same amount of merit...

[Steve]

There is a fundamental difference between the two concepts.

If all life on Earth was created by the so-called Raelians, then who or what created the Raelians?

If created by yet another life-form, then who or what created that life-form? And so on, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

If the Raelians are the ultimate creators, then I suppose they would be a race of gods and thus little different from the concept of God, or god, or gods. It seems to me, though, that there are enough animistic religions on Earth, made up of multiple gods of varying forms, that to claim some divine right by virtue of coming from outer space is just silly.

[Steve]

I forgot to clarify the fundamental difference: the Raelians do not claim the Elohim are gods or Supreme Beings, only that they are master scientists.

So who or what created the Elohim?

[ShinyTop]

And who or what created God? Same argument, same validity. Same ad nauseum.

[Steve]

The concept of God is that of a Supreme Being. God just is. God does not worship a God. God is God. "The buck stops here."

But then, you knew that.

[ShinyTop]

Then why are you talking with anybody about logic. Your belief does not require it so why do you require it of others? Unless, of course, you are the only one right. But then, you knew that.

[Steve]

If I thought I knew the true nature of God, or god, or gods, I sure wouldn't be debating it here!

I was merely explaining the traditional interpretation of God, captial G; more specifically, the traditional God worshipped by Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

I wouldn't begin to claim to be "right" about this subject. To do so would be to slam the doors shut on a whole world of exploration.

I was merely answering Techie2000's question about the differences between the two concepts.

But then, you already knew that, too.

[bruzzes]

Not to interupt or anything, but I was interested in the word Elohim as I had read an interpretation of said beings many decades in the past. Doing a search I found this Interpretation that might be relevent to this thread.

Of course my references have nothing to do with this story.

http://www.salemctr.com/newage/center31.html

Human Origins: The Elohim


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MATAARE CHANNELS THE MERLIN

Date: October 6, 1995

Place: The Healing Center, Arlington Massachusetts

Full Trance Channel: Xiota Lahmpsa Mataare

Entity Coming Through: The Merlin, also known as Ambrosia (one of Merlin's most famous incarnations was with King Arthur)

Number of People in Attendance: approximately 70

Recorder / Writer of this Transcription: Andrew Lutts, Salem New Age Center


THE ELOHIM


The oldest remaining beings in our universe originated about halfway out from the center of our universe, also known as the Great Central Sun. This are is where most of the life is. One of the groups looked around and decided that if they wanted to propagate their species, it would be better to do it outside their established area. So they looked around, secretly, in the outer perimeter of the universe, and found Earth.


By the way, these people halfway out from the center of the universe are human. They are human beings, although they are quite different. They are very respected by other beings in the universe, and the beings around them. After trying to propagate their species in the area of the universe around them, they looked for an area with less interference.


The name given to these non-Earth humans by the ancient Hebrews is the name Elohim, which means "those who came from the sky."


This group of human beings is one of the most advanced group of beings in the universe. They are responsible for the generation of not only life on this planet, but of human beings on this planet. They have been involved ever since the first human was here, in a kind of genetic manipulation, so that the human beings here could result in the capacity of human beings to survive better in the physical universe.


This group of human beings is very advanced, and they have advanced to a point where they believe they have proven that there is no spiritual directive as we know it, with a conscious God. They believe that they are the result of wiser beings who have created them, just as they have created others. They feel this way because life is eternal, and has always existed. However, the concept of infinity and no beginning is difficult for earth humans to understand.


At a certain point the Earth humans created a kind of evolution which was spurned by this group. By the way, they have started life here on Earth several times before, and all the previous attempts have failed.


Throughout history, the Elohim have come to Earth. They came to Earth at different times, to different cultures, and they heavily influenced these cultures throughout history. They were thought to be the Gods and spirits and so forth of the many existing religions which exist today. The Elohim heavily influenced these religions along a moral structure to help the people of this Earth survive successfully and viably. Therefore, when this didn't work, it became political influence to help establish order. Still, to this day, the Elohim are involved in Earthly matters.


They have manipulated Earth humans and have created Earth humans with a larger brain capacity, with the hopes that the Earth humans would have superior intelligence and that they would be able to continue the species. However, the full brain capacity is not yet fully used.


Back on the Elohim planetary system, they conducted a kind of contest. They invited scientists (artists, sort of) to participate. A certain scientist won the contest. Many worlds were populated with humans as a result. However, there are only three worlds populated with humans left today. The Elohim, the Earth, and the star system known as the Pleiades.


Some Earth humans have had their first incarnations as Pleiadians. The Pleiadians are a very spiritual group of people. This contrasts with the Elohim.


YAHWEH


The name of the scientist who won the contest to introduce human life was named Yahweh. A human being, just like you, but a little different. This is not to say that there is no spiritual reality, because there is. One of the different functions of your greater brain capacity was that which enables you to become cognizant of a non-physical spiritual reality. They had no idea that the greater brain capacity would create a sort of quantum leap, so to say, in the way consciousness functions. And this enables you to experience a spiritual reality, which was undefinable to the Elohim, so to speak.


This will later be a revolution to the Elohim. As you become a people who are better able to understand spiritual reality you will be able to relay it the Elohim.


The spiritual reality became confused. As Earth humans evolved and came to be aware of a spiritual reality, the Elohim stepped in and said, "We are they," so that they could guide humans.


This is nothing new. This has happened over and over throughout time, with more advanced beings stepping in to proclaim that they are Gods.


INTERFERENCE


As time passed, there came to be a faction that felt uneasy about Earth humans having a larger brain capacity. This faction invented a few spies to check on the Earth humans in the attempt to thwart the Earth experiment. The name of that scientist who headed up the faction to interfere with the Earth experiment was named Lucifer. Not a devil, just another human being who wanted to see the Earth experiment end because it threatened them. Yahweh and Lucifer were basically enemies.


Several ancient texts contain different "plays" of extraterrestrial involvement on Earth. Krishna himself was an Elohim. When you read scripture, now you can see why these "Gods" act very much like human beings. Why do they have vengeance, and war? Because they are human! However, all these people made valuable contributions to the people of Earth.


AN EMBASSY


The Elohim have since pulled away from much of their involvement with the people on the Earth. However, their latest project involves introducing some of their science to our world, and they are far more advanced than we are.


In order to make the connection with the people of Earth they have proceeded to establish an Embassy. An entity named Rael has founded the Raelian Movement, a group of 30,000 individuals who have come together for this task.


After the Embassy is established, the Elohim will introduce themselves to us a humans, and they will introduce some of their science to us. They also want to help you start a government that is very much like their own. Their government is based on genius, not on democracy. They think that democracy just cannot work, because it leaves too many unintelligent people in control. They believe that the smartest people should be in charge.


Their life cycles are about 850 years old. Those people that make a lasting, significant contribution to society are given another life cycle. This is accomplished through cloning. All of one's information is stored in the cellular level, and thus cloning works well. If the genetic patterns remain exactly the same, the consciousness is transferred also. This is why twins are so "in touch" with each other.


Yahweh is one person who was given another life cycle. He was one of the most brilliant, and has a great deal of influence, probably the greatest influence of anyone, on earth. By the way, Yahweh is not the same as the spiritual presence of the same name.

[ethics]

Elohim? Isn't that Hebrew for something?

[Sunriser13]

This is a reference I found, Leon:

'elohim - "God, gods" used as if it were a name for Israel's God, this apparently plural form also refers to gods (in the plural)

[ethics]

Originally posted by Sunriser13


'elohim - "God, gods" used as if it were a name for Israel's God, this apparently plural form also refers to gods (in the plural)

Thanks, I knew it had a ring to it. I knew eloheynu but wasn't sure on elohim.

[joseftu]

Same root.
"Elohim" is, literally, "gods" plural, but as Sunriser points out, it's often used to mean "God." (Mysteriously--or understandably--God is referred to in Hebrew as sometimes being plural, sometimes female, sometimes male).
"Eloheynu" is, literally, "our God." (The "-eynu" or similar suffix in Hebrew is first person plural possessive)
They're all, of course, just euphemisms for God's extremely holy, never-to-be-used-in-vain, real name.
(The one that's often mistranslated as "Jehovah").
And no real connection to space aliens.

[Sir Joseph]

These people got lazy or something when they were making up their religion? They couldn't even finish up with the names, they had to copy.
The ultimate mark of a "religion" is new names. Marketing, man. First rule in college. When will people learn?

[Aria]

Originally posted by joseftu
Same root.
"Elohim" is, literally, "gods" plural, but as Sunriser points out, it's often used to mean "God." (Mysteriously--or understandably--God is referred to in Hebrew as sometimes being plural, sometimes female, sometimes male).



Makes sense to me ;)

[jamming]

Seventh Day Adventist's went through a rather wierd science phase, now they are considered to be leaders in dietary sciences.

[bruzzes]

Many different interpretations of the name Elohim.
Here's another...

The Hebrews had three common names of God, El, Elohim, and Eloah; besides, they had the proper name Yahweh. Nestle is authority for the statement that Yahweh occurs about six thousand times in the Old Testament, while all the common names of God taken together do not occur half as often. The name Elohim is found 2570 times; Eloah, 57 times [41 in Job; 4 in Pss.; 4 in Dan.; 2 in Hab.; 2 in Canticle of Moses (Deut., xxxii); 1 in Prov., 1 in Is.; 1 in Par.; 1 in Neh. (II Esd.)]; El, 226 times (Elim, 9 times). Lagrange (Etudes sur les religions sémitiques, Paris, 1905, p. 71) infers from Gen., xlvi, 3 (the most mighty God of thy father), Ex., vi, 3 (by the name of God Almighty), and from the fact that El replaces Yah in proper names, the conclusion that El was at first a proper and personal name of God. Its great age may be shown from its general occurrence among all the Semitic races, and this in its turn may be illustrated by its presence in the proper names found in Gen., iv, 18; xxv, 13; xxxvi, 43. Elohim is not found among all the Semitic races; the Aramaeans alone seem to have had an analogous form. It has been suggested that the name Elohim must have been formed after the descendants of Shem had separated into distinct nations.

[Advocat]

Sorry, but the Raelians can't even be original... most of their concepts are grounded in "Chariots of the Gods" by Enrich von Daniken. His primary thesis is that aliens taught humans science and society, but he at least touches on the concept that humans might have developed elsewhere or be a colony of another civilization:
Chariots of the Gods, a Critical Review:
http://skepdic.com/vondanik.html

He makes large use of the Hindu Vedas, where ancient texts describe the gods fighting in winged flying chariots. He also makes reference to the ancient Mayans, whos mythology states that the gods came and taught them... and that the world will end in our year 2012, when the "gods" return.

[Steve]

2012 always cracks me up. The Mayan calendar ends in 2012, sometime in May, I think. This is "proof" that the world will end.......?

I seem to recall a big brouhaha about 3 years ago, where a whole bunch of computer programs and other devices were going to fail because their creators thought that 1999 was plenty far into the future when they were made. Oh, wait, there were some crackpots who thought the world was going to end on 1/1/2000, too, weren't there?

Unoriginal, uninspired, not the first, but you can bet they won't be the last.....

[ethics]

Originally posted by stevent
2012 always cracks me up. The Mayan calendar ends in 2012, sometime in May, I think. This is "proof" that the world will end.......?


I thought it was 2011?

Besides, Mayan calendar was very accurate in dates, and they never said that the world will end, just that the people who inhabited the land will come back to it.

I think people read too much in to that. :(

[Steve]

Could be 2011.

That's the problem with ambiguous statements, and the Mayans aren't the only ones guilty of it. You never know what other people will read into it.

If only the Bill of Rights were a little less ambiguous......