Mandatory Service?

[Biker]

Don't know if I agree with <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/12/29/mandatory.military/index.html" target="blank">this</a> or not. I like the professionalism associated with an "all volunteer" force.

I had the opportunity to work with a few German "conscripts" back in the 80's. There was a huge difference in attitude between the draftees and the volunteers.

Although I do like the idea of manadtory service on the surface, I think I'd rather stick with the all volunteer concept. We get a much better, professional individual out of the deal who knows exactly how to get the job done.

[Sierra Mike]

I agree. Conscription blows.

SM

[Sierra Mike]

Oh wait...Rangel's doing it for political reasons, not for the good of the country. Well then, I'm doubly against it.

SM

[Biker]

Yup.. Although I don't think he has a prayer of getting this passed, the results if it DID pass would be disasterous.

He's looking at it as something that would prevent Congress from approving the use of troops. Problem is, if we had to deal with conscripts as well, the military probably wouldn't be in much shape to do any fighting to begin with.

[ShinyTop]

As a member of the Armed Forces who volunteered one step ahead of the draft I have to agree.

[jamming]

That's why I think that we need a basic one year conscription, for basic and one year of service as a Basic Infantryman. Then make them an offer to go pro, reserves, NG, or get out. One year gets them one year of college tuition at any school they want. They could optionally choose Ameri-Corps or the Peace Corps, or a new Border/Airport/Port Security Service, Also.

[Coot]

I wasn't drafted, I was sent to the Army by a judge...with a 4.0 at CSU Fullerton to boot ;) Man, was I pissed. Sentenced to Vietnam for the civic minded action of blowing up a chunk of the LA River rather than my neighborhood. I was in possession of an old stick of dynamite that had begun to sweat.

At 19, I wasn't smart enough to call the cops and have them dispose of it...soooo, I devised my own cap and detonated it in a relatively safe place...inches from a clean getaway before the CHP caught up to me.

The judge said, Mr. Coot...since you have shown such an affinity for boom boom, I'm going to order you to report to a military recruiter for immediate enlistment into the armed services.

Given the times and the circumstances, I couldn't get into the Air Force or the Navy, and the only options left to me were the Army and the Marine Corps. I opted for the Army.

Imagine that, a societal troublemaker is trained as a LRRP and then not allowed to serve with the 75th. I was assigned to MACV, running recon in the north and training RVN's. Really shitty duty.

My enlistment was for 3 years...I served 3 years, 8 months and 15 days, as I was offered a nice chunk of change to re-up. I don't know if it's changed, but back then, when they gave you the bucks to stay in, they didn't take it away if you got your ass shot up and were deemed no longer fit for worldwide duty.

I don't know, I think using the military as a training ground to reform misfits and to train youth has its benefits. I think a substantial amount of elitism in the form of how the service one provides is rewarded also should be considered.

I know that I wouldn't be the kindly ancient person I am today without benefit of service to my country ;)

If it's to be a forced volunteer sort of 'service', then I agree that bonus points or privileges be granted to those who elect the military or other dangerous occupation as their form of service.

[yazdzik]

Dear Friends,
There are two separate issues, the quality of the military and the quality of the citizenry. Whilst one can see that conscription may produce a few unwilling soldiers, one must also see that service to one's country, whether military or some sort of para-military social service cannot be thought of as optional.
I have no solution to the military side, as I was one sassy draftee, having been a dual national with obligations to two countries. I did not, although the exact nature of my service is not public, end up in the dirt in indochina. For the record, I was shot at by more nationalities than most Americans can even name. It was not glamourous, nor do I wish it upon anyone, least of all my children.
Yet.
My daughter's political ranting, making Haywire seem like an calm, objective Oxford don in comparison, is based upon book learning from New York's private school system. Would she be a good soldier? Unlikely. Would she become a better citizen after having seen the world as it is? Undoubtedly. Am I willing to risk her life, or my son's, to fight an unjust war in a place about which I do not even care? Hard question. It is a lot easier not to care about Iran if one has never been there, a lot easier to hate the Vietnamese immmigrants if one has never seen a paddy.
On the whole, the draft makes little military sense, if the sole purpose of the army is to be a type of business that wins wars. If, on the other hand, as Coot so touchingly shows, that the function is also social, then there must be a way to integrate the needs of the soldier and the citizen.
I have said it too often elsewhere, and I apologise to those who will think me cruel, but I shall only help pay for the university of my young, and those of you who know me personally, know how deeply I love them, unless they serve the country. At some point, the Bill of Rights is not a free ride to shoot off one's mouth, carry a glock, avoid the cops, screw the courts, and avoid the gallows, but a reasoned contract between a disciplined citizenry and their servant government.
To avoid service, even the risking of one's life, to such an ideal, may or may not be cowardly, but it is without question vile.


Yazdzik

[Stiofán]

I would see no problem for a draft, if only to defend the homeland, but I have a problem if used to fill the ranks so we can project our military powers overseas. Since I don't forsee any countries invading us anytime soon (not counting our Mexican border crossing friends :cool: ), I really have a hard time seeing why this is needed.

[ShinyTop]

We were never invaded in WWII. Cetainly the Pearl Harbor attack equals a WTC. Sometimes you project power so you don't have to defend the Ventura County line.

[Stiofán]

Shiny, I consider Hawaii our homeland, even if not a state at the time. You do not? American territory and an American military base. I also consider the WTC an attack on the homeland, but it's not by a foreign state, and the volunteer forces are readily capable of handling the search and destroy terrorism mission. They are also more than capable of the power projection role you mention. I still see no reason for non-volunteer mobilization unless our own population is threatened by a force beyond that which the volunteers can handle.

[ShinyTop]

Our administration and many of citizens consider that we are open to attack on our shores. But I do agree that a draft is not needed for defense at the moment. I do think many of our population could use the discipline of two years in the Army.

[yazdzik]

Dear Shiny,
I almost always agree with you, but, with all deference, you understate. I believe that all of our population, male and female, could use the discipline of two years in the army.
Best,
M

[ethics]

Originally posted by yazdzik
Dear Shiny,
I almost always agree with you, but, with all deference, you understate. I believe that all of our population, male and female, could use the discipline of two years in the army.
Best,
M

Wow, I thought I was the only one who believed this.

[ShinyTop]

I stand corrected and I am in agreement.

[Stiofán]

Originally posted by ShinyTop
I do think many of our population could use the discipline of two years in the Army. Alas, I feel they could do with eighteen years of disipline at home as well, but they aren't getting that either!

[ShinyTop]

Hell, if you spank the little brat you go to jail. But I agree, we could use more discipline in the home.

[Ravenink]

While the societal benefits of military service are huge, I think there are people who if given the opportunity will learn the same lessons from alternatives. I do think the military does a great service to all who join it and over time gain discipline, respect, honor, and a hundred other traits that I have seen in almost every member of our armed forces. To be honest I prefer the company of those who have been in the military to those who have not. In general, I find them to be more considerate and responsible friends. There are of course exceptions.

An alternative I would like to see offered if conscription were to be instituted for societal purposes is a strict martial arts regimen. I have never been in the any branch of the United States military. For medical reasons, I was informed by recruiters that I am ineligable. I do however believe I have had many of the same qualities instilled on me by a lifetime of martial arts that I would have gained from time in the military. When I speak of martial arts training however, I am not talking about the "American Karate (a blashphemous phrase if ever I have heard one)" that we subject our young children too. I am speaking of a dedicated master willing to go to extremes to instill discipline in his students. To be honest, I think if I were younger than I am (which is hardly possible most would say) I could not be trained in the manner that benefited me so. It would be considered abuse, and more than likely my master would end up behind bars faced with civil lawsuits for trying to simply do his job. I seem to have digressed. The point I was endeavoring to make, is that in a highly structured and ordered environment in which discipline is put at the forefront a young person can benefit greatly, whether it be from the military or not.

I leave you now with the tenents I was made to recite perhaps 50 times a day for 10 years.

Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self-Control, Indomitable Spirit.

[jamming]

The Marines have developed there own martial art that they practice now.

[Ravenink]

pffffffft

[Biker]

Can anyone remember the state of our armed forces back in the 70's before we went to an all volunteer force? **shudder**

[jamming]

I remember and when Carter gutted the pilot training courses because it was too expensive.

[Sierra Mike]

Originally posted by jamming
The Marines have developed there own martial art that they practice now. I'll stack them up against the hombres from 5 SFG. Those guys practice a variety of martial arts--while wearing full gear. Their reasoning was it was highly unlikely if it came to hand-to-hand that both sides could adjourn to a dojo somewhere, slip into a gi, and have at it.

They'd also fight in the mud pits at Ft. Campbell.

SM

[Sierra Mike]

"American Karate (a blashphemous phrase if ever I have heard one)"News flash, lad--there's nothing so special about martial arts in general and karate in particular that can't be sufficiently Americanized.

Martial arts in mainland China is almost dead now; almost no one practices it with any real gusto any longer.

The Shotokan I took in Japan as virtually the same as the Shotokan I took in America and the Army; except they believe in really hitting you on the Home Islands.

SM

[jamming]

The purpose of martial arts is to be used in the military, this is a sufficient technique to kill an enemy.

[Sierra Mike]

Yes, that's true--was that comment directed at me?

SM

[jamming]

Nope just to the general disdain on the Marines Martial Arts Program

[Sierra Mike]

LOL...I'm not familiar with it personally, but if they don't train in full gear, it's probably not any more effective than any other HTHC. I saw trainees working out at 29 Palms when I was there for a joint training session, and it looked pretty similar to the same stuff the Army did during basic.

SM

[Sierra Mike]

Actually, hold on one sec, Jim--how long has the Corps had its specific variant of martial arts?

SM

[Ravenink]

my biggest problem isn't americanizing the specific techniques of the martial arts. I view the techniques as a thing that evolves over time. As we learn more about physiology, physics, and hand to hand combat it is only natural the art must move with it. The particular blasphemy of american martial arts is twofold. The first being that with very few exceptions most of the american instructors I have trained with or under have been total crap. There are some exceptions (I'd like to think I'm one of them), but in general their skill level was lacking.

There are so many black belt factories now producing martial artists of no skill whatsoever that I feel it has been degraded into something with little more combat value than ballet unless taught properly. Personally, having been trained by someone who studied at the Kukkiwon, the difference between a korean tae kwon do stylist, and an american one can be seen very quickly. Personally, I have never studied Karate, so I can't say how that particular art in different between the eastern and western worlds.

As far as really hitting you goes, I think that is absolutely vital to a good martial arts education. If it is to be used for self-defense, you must know what it feels like to be hit. Too many of the "black belts" running around now have never been punched in the face in their lives. The first time that happens their untrained instincts take over, and they end up embarrasing themselves.

My final big problem with the americanization of martial arts is that any sense of discipline or honor that was held has entirely gone out the window. Last time I went into a new dojang and showed the instructor proper respect he looked at me as if I were an alien. Because they were largely formed for martial purposes, I believe the martial arts if taught properly essentially provide the same thing to a person that an actual military experience does.

(btw, sorry for the OT rant :) )

[jamming]

It has just been recently authorized in the last year or two, there will be competitions and such between commands.

[Sierra Mike]

Oh, darn. I know an old Corps instructor--actually went to college with him, and he was one of the district five leaders in tae kwon do. Would have been funny if he's had a hand in this and hadn't told me.

SM

[Ravenink]

my general disdain for the marines martial arts program comes from my experiences sparring with a few. While I imagine more warfare takes place with guns now than with the body, training a soldier for two weeks of wrist locks and throws and leading them to believe they can actually fight is setting themselves up for trouble.

This is the same reason I also never believed in self-defense seminars. Unless a technique is practiced daily for months at a time, it will never integrate itself the part of the mind that governs fighting, and so will be useless. I would need more details of the marines training program to make an accurant assessment of it, I admit I have some negative preconcieved notions however. If you can give a link with much more detail however, I can give you an opinion on it. The last military martial arts manual I saw was from the early 90's and it was...well...pathetic. Perhaps things have changed since then. Actually..let me be fair. In that particular manual, the disarming techniques were first rate, and one of them I even adopted to my own repertoire. The rest of it though was garbage.

[Ravenink]

ah, now that I have read jamming's post about it being a newly instituted thing, I can safely say I have no experience with it. As such, I cannot in any way make a judgement of it. The idea of competitions worries me however, how well will they simulate actual combat simulations.

If it is anything like modern tae kwon do sparring that civilians do, they'd probably be better off watching a jackie chan movie. Then again, with the right culture, and the right instructors in place, that program could be potentially amazing.

[jamming]

This is to be shown basic moves in Basic and more in Advance Infantry, and competitions through out the service. Daily or weekly practicing, to work on the art of fighting, to be dangerous even without a weapon, to be the weapon.

[Sierra Mike]

Rave,

In the real world of karate, tae kwon do (which I took for two years but gave up in favor of Shotokan), judo, and wuxia--these being the only arts I've been exposed to--a lot of things have been changed for the American marketplace. I can't speak for anyone, but this is generally necessary due to the cultural imperatives which formed the two divergent cultures.

In Asia, almost no one gets a belt. You are always a student as long as you are at a school.

In America, you get a belt because Americans want to be given something to show they're advancing. Just like our corporations, just like our military, just like everything else in American life--it's a reward-based system. But it works, and it works well.

I agree, there is a wide gap between the discipline one will be exposed to in more traditional settings than the martial arts "schools" one can attend in the US. A lot of these US schools are run by immigrants who no longer really try to teach the actual discipline, because they don't have to go through the extra effort to make the same money.

As far as being really hit goes, you are correct. That doesn't happen here in the US, but it's beside the point. The arts taught here are more for making money, rather than teaching a strict discipline.

By the way, I immediately broke the guy's nose.

SM

[ShinyTop]

Believe me when I say I mean no disrespect to the martial arts you have studied. I do not and probably could not do what you do. And I am sure there is a comparison to be made since they both require discipline.

But the military, particularly in a combat situation, is 24/7. Your life depends not only on your skill and discipline, but also that of the soldier on your right and left. You can pay attention to your front because your training has shown you can trust them with your life. You have to. I must admit I am not familiar with martial arts training. But what I have heard does not lead me to believe the comaraderie and team membership is there that you get from trusting your life to the team's ability rather than your own.

And although I am sure there are exceptions, few martial arts classes result in your death or even worse, the death of your buddy, if you do not learn the lesson.

[Ravenink]

you raise a good point shiny, and since I have never been involved in the military I cannot speak to the level of camraderie in it. While I believe martial arts does have hugely positive mental and social effects on a person, I would say it is a fair assessment that if not the level of camraderie is different, at the very least the type is. While I am very familiar with placing my life in another's hands as part of my training, and I have been under fire before (the indiscretions of my youth.), I cannot reasonably compare that to being in a war zone. Honestly I have no idea what that is like and you could probably explain it to me for days and I would not truly understand. I suspect like many things it is an experience which can only be understood by those who have gone through it. There is a similar bond among serious martial artists, but I do not believe it to be as strong. In terms of discipline and everything associated with that I consider martial arts to be an equal to the military way of life, in terms of camraderie and teamwork, I think you have raised a good point and one I must reflect on further before giving a fair answer.

[Sierra Mike]

Shiny,

Martial arts training did remarkably little for me in the service. During JUST CAUSE, a fight broke out between some detained Panamian dignity battalion members and some 7th Lightfighters at the airfield while myself and some other guys were walking by. The other guys hung back, but I went jumping in and basically got beat up. My friends congratulated me on being brave and attempting to John Wayne it, but rather properly pointed out it would have made more sense to do what they did: hang back, unstrap the MP-5s from their tactical carry rigs, and get ready to rock if things got out of hand.

That's right, folks. I got into a fist fight while wearing an MP-5 strapped to my right thigh. Not only did I exhibit rather remarkable lack of situational awareness, the lightfighters made it pretty plain they did not appreciate my assistance, especially if one of the Panamanians disarmed me.

SM

[ShinyTop]

It does not require an answer. Your lack of experience there is not unusual or anything I would encourage somebody to go and get. But my point was meant for the idea of the training. Before approaching a combat zone the training is sobering. And when you see the purple heart and the medals on the chests of your instructors the training takes on new meaning if you have half a brain. Some don't come out any better than when they went in, but that's their fault. The opportunity for personal growth is great and is given to you on a silver platter. What you make of it is probably like your training. Some do and some don't.

[Biker]

Originally posted by Steve Moore
Shiny,

Martial arts training did remarkably little for me in the service. During JUST CAUSE, a fight broke out between some detained Panamian dignity battalion members and some 7th Lightfighters at the airfield while myself and some other guys were walking by. The other guys hung back, but I went jumping in and basically got beat up. My friends congratulated me on being brave and attempting to John Wayne it, but rather properly pointed out it would have made more sense to do what they did: hang back, unstrap the MP-5s from their tactical carry rigs, and get ready to rock if things got out of hand.

That's right, folks. I got into a fist fight while wearing an MP-5 strapped to my right thigh. Not only did I exhibit rather remarkable lack of situational awareness, the lightfighters made it pretty plain they did not appreciate my assistance, especially if one of the Panamanians disarmed me.

SM

Betcha ya never forgot that little "lesson", too, did ya? ;)

[Sierra Mike]

Absolutely not. Especially after TF160's commander, one Colonel John Dailey, tore me a new asshole. He also invited me to join an infantry unit if that's what I really desired; of course, that started a fight between him and Colonel Doug Terrell, the lightfighter commander, who also showed up to kick my ass. I think Terrell was truly concerned I might try and hook up with 7th Light.

SM

[ShinyTop]

SM, the hand to hand fighting taught in basic was as far as I went. What it did for me was convince me I would shoot or butt stroke anybody but that hand to hand would get me killed.

[Sierra Mike]

I agree...but apparently required a lesson the hard way, regardless.

SM