However; and its punctuation

[jimeez]

Can someone explain the correct use of the semi-colon and the word "however"? Take this sentence for example:
Vestibule C213A was added through addendum 4 as per sketch ASK17. However the electrical drawings did not include the change.

I am pretty sure the correct punctuation would be:
...sketch ASK17, however; the electrical...

If that is correct, why is it correct? If it is not. What would be the correct punctuation?

[Fiona]

Excellent choice!

These two, together and independently, stump me most often.

[ethics]

Uhm, I would never use however with a semicolon because they CAN be used for the same thing. It would be kind of redundant, no?

I mean, you are going along nicely but want to contradict or oppose your statement, you would use however. If you want to keep going with the SAME logic, without any contradictions, I would use the semicolon.

For example:

Joe is a Liberal, however, he takes each issue independently.

Joe is a Liberal; he votes Democrat 100% of the time.

[Fiona]

I always used the "beginning of the sentence" method.

http://www.csse.uwa.edu.au/~mark/research/However.html (http://www.csse.uwa.edu.au/%7Emark/research/However.html)

"However" is a connecting adverb meaning "nevertheless, in spite of that, etc". It is not a conjunction so it is not able to join two sentences to make a longer one.
That is the mistake in B1 above. B1 is called a "run on" error.

[jimeez]

Hmmm....that makes perfect sense, but somewhere I got it in my head that however should be followed by a semicolon. Your explanation makes perfect sense though.

[ethics]

It could, James, I doubt I would do that though. However is an implied pause already.

[Fiona]

From what I can tell, I think that you've got it half right, Leon.

All is sensible in your post except for the first example, which is directly contradicted by mine.

[SixofNine]

For example:

Joe is a Liberal, however, he takes each issue independently.

However, I disagree with this example. :)

You're joining two sentences to make one longer sentence, so you need a semicolon.

Joe is a Liberal; however, he takes each issue independently.

Leaving them as two separate sentences works and might even be better:

Joe is a liberal. However, he takes each issue independently.

Jimeez, you need a conjunction or a semicolon to connect two independent clauses. "However" is an adverb and it is grammatically incorrect to use it to join two sentences.

[ethics]

You're joining two sentences to make one longer sentence, so you need a semicolon.

Really? NEED even? Wow... Never used semis with However.

[SixofNine]

Really? NEED even? Wow... Never used semis with However.

Which means that you're mistakenly using however as a conjunction.

[joseftu]

I will venture to say that you should never follow "however" with a semicolon (it's risky to say never, but I'm brave!). A comma, at most, is sufficient.

Generally, the rule is that the clauses on both sides of the semicolon should be able to function as sentences on their own. "However," all by itself, really can't function as a sentence. So it can't sit all alone on one side of a semicolon.

[ethics]

I will venture to say that you should never follow "however" with a semicolon (it's risky to say never, but I'm brave!). A comma, at most, is sufficient.

Agreed. I don't think I was clear above though.

Generally, the rule is that the clauses on both sides of the semicolon should be able to function as sentences on their own.

That's the main function of a semi, to separate the two complete sentences, with a small pause, smaller pause than a period.

[joseftu]

Exactly. That's a good way to look at it. It's a smaller pause, and a closer logical connection, than a period.

[Fiona]

all agreed there. But isn't it also true, as Bri and I have said, that using however to join two separate clauses is improper use? It's an adverb, not a conjunction.

*scratches head...

7 books and two websites can't be wrong.

[joseftu]

Yes, you're right about that, too. I was just addressing the semicolon question. My tired brain can't focus on too many issues at once!

[SixofNine]

all agreed there. But isn't it also true, as Bri and I have said, that using however to join two separate clauses is improper use? It's an adverb, not a conjunction.
Yes, but I'm sorry for the OT digression on one of Leon's examples. It is improper to use however to join two independent clauses. However :) , it is correct to see however following a semicolon. The semicolon is joining the two independent clauses.

Correct:

Joe is a Liberal; however, he takes each issue independently.

[ethics]

Brian, thanks for doing that, for I did learn something new here.

[Fiona]

Me too. As stated, it always confuses me.

[SixofNine]

Hey, truth be told, I just avoid semicolons as much as possible. :biggrin:

[ethics]

I think Orwell would have loved you.

[Copzilla]

Generally, the rule is that the clauses on both sides of the semicolon should be able to function as sentences on their own.

This is how I understood it as well. It's where two sentences could be made, but the author doesn't really want to end the sentence because the train of thought requires more of a connection.

--

Ex:

Copzilla is a voting moderate; he tends to choose candidates on both sides of the aisle.

Now it could be properly written:

Copzilla is a voting moderate. He tends to choose candidates on both sides of the aisle.

But in order to maintain the flow of thought, the thesis and evidence within a single sentence, the semicolon is used.

I like to use them myself, but I don't see them used by many others.

[ethics]

I like to use them myself, but I don't see them used by many others.

Personally, I love them.

[joseftu]

Don't overuse them--you may need a semicolonoscopy!

[Copzilla]

Semicolectomy... The removal of a semicolon.