Advice

[Brazbit]

For the love of god people it is Advice. You give advice you ask for advice. When you give advice or receive advice then you are advising or being advised. Advice = Noun. Advise=Verb.

Once upon a time you could tell viruses and spam because of the misuse of advise now people are using it wrong almost everywhere I go. :yougottabekidding:

Don't even get me started on the greeting card inspired corruption of congratulations into congradulations. Congradulations was a play on word for graduates. :whap:

BTW: This is not directed at the folks here I just had to let off some steam somewhere.
</IMG></IMG>

[ethics]

For months I was thinking about creating a forum called "English". It would be just a place where people can ask about proper usage and anything related to the English language. I think you've just pushed me over to do just that. :)

[Lovehound]

For months I was thinking about creating a forum called "English". It would be just a place where people can ask about proper usage and anything related to the English language. I think you've just pushed me over to do just that. :)
That might be a good idea Leon. Perhaps we can start by discussing the proper use of quotation marks, such as putting the period inside the quotes when the quotation ends the sentence. :)

[Sierra Mike]

Umm...not always. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the quotation marks are modifying a word here, not the sentence. I'm no English professor, but I'm pretty sure his employment is proper in this context. ;)

SM

[ravital]

For months I was thinking about creating a forum called "English". It would be just a place where people can ask about proper usage and anything related to the English language. I think you've just pushed me over to do just that. :)
Go for it Dude, it's a good idea :)

[Violet1966]

"Where the fuck is Joseftu when you need him?", she said surprisedly. LMAO

When he gets here, maybe he'll have some insight for this 'punctuation' bullshit! ;)

[rockotman]

We could always bring up the eternal debate as to whether it should be one space or two spaces after the sentenece-ending punctuation. Ask typesetters and you will get as many different sets of rules for this situation as there are typesetters available to ask.

[ShinyTop]

Who cares about typesetters. Mrs. Schimmel said there were supposed to be two and I had a rule to never argue with Mrs. Schimmel.

[Violet1966]

Well if we're going to be so damn nit picky like these experts are, we all better start exhibiting some proper paragraphing! LOL We don't even use indents damn it! ;)

[rockotman]

Well if we're going to be so damn nit picky like these experts are, we all better start exhibiting some proper paragraphing! LOL We don't even use indents damn it! ;)I would advice you to not try that, Vi - or the paragraph police will get you. :haha:

[Advocat]

For months I was thinking about creating a forum called "English". It would be just a place where people can ask about proper usage and anything related to the English language. I think you've just pushed me over to do just that. :)

Oh boy! Now, not only can we debate the superiority of the Queen's English over that nasty North American spelling, we can argue the relative merits of the different writing style guides: MLA, APA, Chicago/Turabian, Harvard, CGOS, CBE.

Damn, where's a "gag me with a spoon" smiley when you need one? :haha:

[jfcjrus]

All right, it's about damn time we got some grammar police around here!
I can't tell you how many questions I have!
I just never know if I should capitalize LOL, ROFL, NIMBY, and the like, or not!
It'll be great to finally have someone in charge to answer all these questions that have been bothering me for so long!

Not to mention to finally have someone, in charge, to kick that <i>English Professor's</i> butt when he puts a comma in the wrong place!
I can't tell you how pissed I get about that!

So, who do I call when I notice a grammatical error?

Regards,

[Piobaireachd]

I'm axing you, just what is the problem?

[jfcjrus]

I'm axing you, just what is the problem?
Well, you're obviously not the one in charge!

Hey, this grammar issue is serious stuff, so I'd really like to know to whom I might address my very pertinent complaints regarding the grammar of some of our members!
Who the hell's the Sargeant in Charge of these grammar police?

Is there a LINK (should that be capitalized?)?

Regards,

[joseftu]

"Where the fuck is Joseftu when you need him?", she said surprisedly. LMAO

When he gets here, maybe he'll have some insight for this 'punctuation' bullshit! ;)
[Mighty Mouse Voice]Here I come, to save the day![/Voice]
Umm...not always. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the quotation marks are modifying a word here, not the sentence. I'm no English professor, but I'm pretty sure his employment is proper in this context. ;)
Nope! In American English, comma and period go inside the quotation marks, regardless of logic. Is youse tryin to infer dat Leon ain't American?

Not to mention to finally have someone, in charge, to kick that English Professor's butt when he puts a comma in the wrong place!
Never happens! :)

[Coot]

I'm trying to figure out just where the hell I went to school. We were taught that the period goes outside of the quotation mark when the quote ends the sentence. I'm pretty sure I was taught in an American school, though I must confess that, given my current state of dementia, I can no longer state that with complete certainty. ;)

[joseftu]

Ah, that was probably in California, not America, Coot. ;)

Seriously, this rule is not new. I've got a grammar text from around 1910 which includes the rule almost exactly as I've stated it above. Maybe your teacher was British?

[ethics]

And so was mine? I don't understand it, that rule is in me as if it was stapled there by a very steady force. My schooling is from NYC public education.

[SixofNine]

My experience is the same as Joe's, supported by St. Martin's Handbook, a popular handbook for writing classes at the college level that that I use as a reference for questions such as this one. I was also aware of this dichotomy between American and English grammar rules.

Strunk touches upon the issue with respect to commas:

A quotation grammatically in apposition or the direct object of a verb is preceded by a comma and enclosed in quotation marks.

I am reminded of the advice of my neighbor, "Never worry about your heart till it stops beating."

Mark Twain says, "A classic is something that everybody wants to have read and nobody wants to read."

When a quotation is followed by an attributive phrase, the comma is enclosed within the quotation marks.

"I can't attend," she said.

Typographical usage dictates that the comma be inside the marks, though logically it often seems not belong there.

Just to be boringly repetitive, the "I don't have to think, just put it inside the quotation mark" American rule applies only to commas and periods. Question marks, exclamation points, and dashes go inside quotation marks only if they are part of the quotation, otherwise they go outside.

Brian

[Violet1966]

LMAO there's Joe.

You know it's really not logical that a period be inside a quotation at the end of a sentence. I mean if it's inside the quotation, then it finalizes the quotation and not the sentence itself. I don't doubt that we have our own way of doing things in the United States form of grammar, but this just doesn't look or feel right to me. LMAO

Found this link and it's funny. They use the term logical as well, and how illogical some of these methods seem. Especially the exceptions like if you use quotations on a single letter or number. The period goes outside the quotation if the contents within the quote is a single letter or number. WTF and why?? LMAO http://www.grammartips.homestead.com/inside.html

I went to public school from about 1971 to 1984 and if I was doing this wrong all along, then when my teachers pointed it out to me, I must have never taken to it because I felt it was improper or something? LOL

[ethics]

Now, keep in mind that this comma and period inside the quotation marks business is strictly American usage. The British don't do it that way. They are inclined to place commas and periods logically rather than conventionally, depending on whether the punctuation belongs to the quotation or to the sentence that contains the quotation, just as we do with question marks and exclamation points.

Yah, really. Americans must be thick here.

But my Bible--aside from Strunk-- is Patricia O'Connor's, "Woe is I". Unfortunately, she just touches on the Question Mark and how that is used.

[joseftu]

I hesitate to venture it, guys, but if you learned the opposite in school, either your teachers were wrong, or you're not remembering what you were taught. I think it's the latter. This rule is counterintuitive, and people tend to remember what seems logical, especially about matters as trivial as this.

But I don't think you will find any reputable American source, certainly no American textbook, that says anything else. If we could telephone (or possibly reach by seance) your English teachers, I have a feeling they would say that they knew this rule, and taught it to you correctly.

But I would bet that after this thread, everyone will remember it from now on!

Actually (maybe this is just something about which I've convinced myself over time), I think the American rule makes more sense. Periods and commas are attached to words, and when they float all by themselves, detached from the word, they look so lonely!

There are other distinctions between British English and American English in punctuation, of course.

In American English, we use a double quote, and for a quote inside of that, switch to the single (and then alternating back and forth between the double and single), while in British English, they use the single quote for the first quote, and then switch to the double.

For example.

American: Sarah told us the story of her fight with Emily. "Emily came right up and smacked me in the face. Then she said, 'You bitch! You stole my boyfriend!'"

British: Sarah told us the story of her quarrel with Emily. 'Emily walked over and struck me across the face. Then she said, "You tart! You made off with my boyfriend!"'

The British also tend not to use periods in abbreviations. Dr. Joseftu, Ph.D. becomes Dr Joseftu, PhD

Those wacky Brits!

(I learned most of this myself from years of teaching students from the West Indies--where deviations from British English are punished with a rattan cane. Those students never forget where a "full stop" or a comma goes!)

[Lovehound]

Just to note that the American population vastly outnumbers the British population, so the true correct English is now American English. Please note also that the English language is evolving, has always evolved, and what was correct years ago may be incorrect now, and what is incorrect now may be just a matter of disagreement. After all, grammar is not a science, and common usage is the best standard for what is correct at any time, or may become the new standard for what will be correct in the future. This is NOT a science, nor is it exact.

[ethics]

Just to note that the American population vastly outnumbers the British population, so the true correct English is now American English.So that's how things are decided these days? Sheer numbers? There are more Indians speaking British English than there are Americans speaking American English.

[Lovehound]

Common usage determines what is correct. Who knows? Maybe Indians will be the next authorities on English. Three hundred years ago it was the British. Today (IMO) it is Americans. Perhaps it will be the "dot" Indians in the future (as opposed to "feather" Indians).

"Thank you veddy-veddy-much to you. My name is Manjoon and I will be your custoomer service representative today. To you how may I help?"

Gimme a break! :) You wanna move to England and argue with Limeys (or to India?), then you've got a ground. But if you want to be serious, with you and I and most of the members being in America, then it's American English that is the standard.

If not, then please define your referent for the "English Language" forum so we know which rules to play. I say that the possible alternatives should be limited to those countries who speak English as their native and primary language. That would be the U.S. on one hand, and U.K. and the Commonwealth on the other. Pick one or justify another alternative selection.

[Violet1966]

And some dictionaries are starting to give the word "ain't" recognition, as was mentioned in another thread. LOL That has to be an American thing as well.

Actually (maybe this is just something about which I've convinced myself over time), I think the American rule makes more sense. Periods and commas are attached to words, and when they float all by themselves, detached from the word, they look so lonely!


I think of them as finalizing the sentence as a whole. Since the first quotation mark is enclosed in that sentence, then the last should be as well (in my mind), with the period marking the end of the sentence.

I don't doubt that it's being taught that the period goes inside the quotation mark, but it doesn't make sense to me. I would think the quotation mark should be more attached to the words being quoted then the period should?

If I was taught the way you and Six were, then I probably had seen graded or marked papers with the corrections, but ignored them thinking the teacher made a mistake and I probably never bothered to dispute it. LOL

[ethics]

Dude, you were the one defined it with a half-assed logic. Don't be blaming me.

[Lovehound]

It's okay to use the word "ain't" if you understand that it is a colloquialism and that it's incorrect in mainstream English. IMO. YMMV.

For the record, I think that the standard American English quotation style is completely logical, but perhaps that's just because that's the way I was taught and because that's the way I see it used in all modern fictional works. (Most of my reading is fiction.) That's right, all the books that I read use this standard of quotation, "Because that's what is commonly used!"

Jeez, we need Allene in this discussion. She has a black belt in English. She alone could kick all of our asses together and not even break a sweat.

[Lovehound]

Dude, you were the one defined it with a half-assed logic. Don't be blaming me.
First of all, I'm not blaming you, just asking for clarification. Second, please support your assertion of "half-assed logic" or admit it's an unsupported opinion.

[ethics]

Second, please support your assertion of "half-assed logic" or admit it's an unsupported opinion.

See, this is what I meant by petty stuff.

Half-assed logic: Just to note that the American populationvastly outnumbers the British population, so the true correct English is now American English.

[Lovehound]

Well, and your own post is petty stuff. Q.E.D. :)

I'm thinking your idea of having an English forum is perhaps the worst idea of the month.

[Violet1966]

I think this forum is a great addition. One thing that's not great is if we act judgemental of anyone's use of grammar, etc..

We can do this and keep it civil. I know we can. Now let's all just do it and get back to the edumication already! ;)

[Lovehound]

See, this is what I meant by petty stuff.

Half-assed logic: Just to note that the American populationvastly outnumbers the British population, so the true correct English is now American English.

Well fine, because your opinion proves nothing, not "half-assed," it proves nothing other than your opinionated point of view.

I'm amazed at an immigrant ESL telling a native speaker who got all A's and B's in high school English what is correct, one of my best subjects, and additionally a published author.

If you think your English forum was a good idea, then that's bad judgement. If you think it was good judgement then I question your intelligence.

Count me out in the future. I'm masking off this forum for new posts, although I may drop in from time to time to see the ridiculous folly that you've created. Have a good time foreign thong boy! :)

[ethics]

Well fine, because your opinion proves nothing, not "half-assed," it proves nothing other than your opinionated point of view.

I'm amazed at an immigrant ESL telling a native speaker who got all A's and B's in high school English what is correct, one of my best subjects, and additionally a published author.

If you think your English forum was a good idea, then that's bad judgement. If you think it was good judgement then I question your intelligence.

Count me out in the future. I'm masking off this forum for new posts, although I may drop in from time to time to see the ridiculous folly that you've created. Have a good time foreign thong boy! :)

I'm just gonna leave that quote alone and not add other than this forum has been turned off for you because you are way over your head here and certainly not suited for this type of forum, as you weren't suitable for the writing forums.

[Sierra Mike]

And he didn't even spell "judgment" properly, at that.

SM

[joseftu]

Jeez, we need Allene in this discussion. She has a black belt in English. She alone could kick all of our asses together and not even break a sweat.
Allene is the best, no question.

[Fiona]

Ah, that was probably in California, not America, Coot. ;)

Seriously, this rule is not new. I've got a grammar text from around 1910 which includes the rule almost exactly as I've stated it above. Maybe your teacher was British?Excuse me. No way! Not to you, Joe... I agree with you. But California is no excuse. ;)

I was taught English in California and the ending punctuation goes inside the quote.
I have several books in the living room if I must, English Grammar, English composition, styles of writing, etc. ;)
Don't make me bring back Mrs. Gribble from the grave! She could be cranky while living.


Who's petty. Where? :biggrin:

[Fiona]

You know what really bugs me lately? Okay, is no longer a word in these "word" programs. It gets a red underline every time. I realize it's slang and a disambiguation. But it was commonly accepted for years. Now it's flagged by the grammar police.

OK came from German I believe... oh look, you can't see, but no red line. So that is the proper way. OK. Cool. Oll Korrect!

[Violet1966]

LMAO and the proper way to use OK is to capitalize both letters, with no periods. Also meaning all right, which people tend to think is one word, and it's not! LOL ;)

[Fiona]

Right! I remember when I was 15 and didn't know - learned for the first time- that "a lot" was a two word phrase. A lot. Not alot. Who knew!?

[Brazbit]

Right! I remember when I was 15 and didn't know - learned for the first time- that "a lot" was a two word phrase. A lot. Not alot. Who knew!?I still give my mom a hard time about this one. I had grown up seeing it used in correspondence between her and her friends. Then came the fateful day when I used a lot in a report and was marked down for it along with a few other common mistakes like that. Apparently my mom had added a lot of her common misspellings into the custom dictionary of Word Perfect so that it would stop bugging her when she wrote to her friends. :banghead:

Luckily soon after that we acquired our first copy of Microsoft Word. She did not like Word so I was able to keep it's dictionary intact and she was free to do whatever she wished to the dictionary in Word Perfect. When I was given my own computer I made sure to keep her away from my word processer. ;)

</IMG>

[Allene]

I hesitate to venture it, guys, but if you learned the opposite in school, either your teachers were wrong, or you're not remembering what you were taught. I think it's the latter. This rule is counterintuitive, and people tend to remember what seems logical, especially about matters as trivial as this.

Joe is right. The Brits and Canadians do it one way and the Americans another way. It's a matter of style, and we should follow the style of the country in which we live. I had to learn to do it the American way after I came to the United States from Canada.