Clinton pushes pre-kindergarten proposal

[ethics]

Forget, for a second, that it's Hillary, that's not the point I want to HONESTLY discuss here. I want to ask all the following question: Is this initiative a good or a bad one? (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070521/ap_on_el_pr/clinton_children)

"Our educational system needs to be strengthened from start to finish, but we have to start where it all begins," Clinton told an audience of children, teachers and parents on Monday.
Clinton said she would pay for the program by closing tax loopholes and eliminating Bush administration programs she disagrees with.


<input value="" iraq="" name="p" type="hidden"><input value="c1,i,yn,c3" name="sourceOrder" type="hidden"><input value="<p style=" font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-weight:bold;font-size:13px;padding:0;margin-top:1em;margin-bottom:.5em;="" type="hidden">"There are so many places to cut the money that is being spent in this government. Let's start by cutting 500,000 of the private contractors the Bush administration has had who don't do a job that is held accountable in any way,"



Please be honest, no partisan bs!!! Please.
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[joseftu]

I don't know if the funding numbers all work out, but if so, it's a fantastic idea.
Her proposal would provide federal funds to states that agree to establish a plan for making voluntary pre-kindergarten services universally available for all 4-year-olds. States that already do so would receive money to expand or enhance the programs.

Teachers would need at least a bachelor's degree and specialize in early childhood education and the plan would require low student-teacher ratios, Clinton said.

[ShinyTop]

We don't need to start children at an earlier date, we need to make use of the years we have them now. Return to basic educational principals, reduce the overhead and reintroduce discipline so the distractions are a minimum.

[ethics]

Joe, at first I agree with you but I need to check it because maybe I (we?) are missing something?

[joseftu]

Could be. But it's voluntary. It's offering parents an option, and I have a hard time seeing how that's a bad thing.

It's been proven again and again that kids who have quality pre-school do much better when they get to school. Kids who have parents who can afford that get a giant advantage over kids whose parents can not afford it. This would help to level the playing field.

But it's also clear that kids who can be at home with a parent can get just as good as the pre-school. Pre-school is better than day care that is just babysitting, but it's not always better than just the parent.

That's why the fact that it's voluntary is important.

[tke711]

We have voluntary K-4 in my area and my daughter has THRIVED in it. It's only a little over 2 hours a day and quite fun for the kids.

IF her funding isn't BS, then I'm actually all for it. Even if it is from Hillary. :)

[drntdrtydg]

It violates a number of my personal don'ts, like "don't spend the taxpayers money on personal benefits for xyz person. It also makes me want to throw up by instinct on anything Clinton proposes.

But: In this case, spend the money. Get the little monsters away from the emptey house devoid of mental stimulation (read: crippled 70 year old diabetic grandmother taking responsibility for 4 year old child because her 33 year old daughter is sleeping it off after partying all night with a 22 year old gangbanger) and in some structured environment preferably where they are being exposed to letters, numerals, visual aids, toys, other children in groups, organized activities-anything to help them develop more complex neural structures within their minds.
Yes.

[Fiona]

In order to answer your initial question honestly, I have not yet read any responses...

Do I think it's a good plan? No.

1. How many states DON"T have voluntary preschool? :blank: I'm from California.. comes with the sunshine here I guess.
2. The problem with the way our kids are being educated, to me, is not how early they begin, but the quality of the educators, education, etc.

now reading the thread...

[cdw]

We don't need to start children at an earlier date, we need to make use of the years we have them now. Return to basic educational principals, reduce the overhead and reintroduce discipline so the distractions are a minimum.


Oh I sooo agree. Unfortunately with all these two bread winner households I wonder if it works any more.

[Fiona]

I guess I'm confused.
Of course it would be great if all kids COULD go to school earlier... Here they already do. Is it so common that there are no programs? I need data!

[Plunge]

Education begins at home imho. We sent our daughter to pre-school, mainly for the social aspect of it. But it was the couple of hours a night I spent teaching my daughter to read, write and do math that put her ahead.

One of my favorite memories is having a teacher who called my wife and me to school on the first day. He had given the kids a math test, not expecting them to be able to do half of it. He was blown away as my daughter was doing the last part of the test, division, and raised her hand to ask which decimal point to take the answer to. Most kids had no idea what division was as it was to be taught that year and, it was to be taught with a remainder, not out past the decimal. I had completely forgot about remainder division when I taught my daughter and just taught her to take it out to as many places as I asked her to.

He kept her test framed on the wall till the day he retired.

It really doesn't take much effort to teach your kids at home and give them a HUGE head start. With us, it was about 2 hours, 3 times a week and Nicole entered school at about a 5th grade level.

[Stiofán]

Oh great, something else for me to pay for.

When is it enough people? Excuse me, but educate your own damn spawn before kintergarden.

Honest enough for ya?

[Stiofán]

Education begins at home imho. We sent our daughter to pre-school, mainly for the social aspect of it. But it was the couple of hours a night I spent teaching my daughter to read, write and do math that put her ahead.

One of my favorite memories is having a teacher who called my wife and me to school on the first day. He had given the kids a math test, not expecting them to be able to do half of it. He was blown away as my daughter was doing the last part of the test, division, and raised her hand to ask which decimal point to take the answer to. Most kids had no idea what division was as it was to be taught that year and, it was to be taught with a remainder, not out past the decimal. I had completely forgot about remainder division when I taught my daughter and just taught her to take it out to as many places as I asked her to.

He kept her test framed on the wall till the day he retired.

It really doesn't take much effort to teach your kids at home and give them a HUGE head start. With us, it was about 2 hours, 3 times a week and Nicole entered school at about a 5th grade level.

Bravo! :clap:

[joseftu]

1. How many states DON"T have voluntary preschool? :blank: I'm from California.. comes with the sunshine here I guess.
The question is not whether the preschool exists, it's whether it's free--whether it's paid for by the state. Right now, 38 states offer some amount of free preschool, but in only a handful is it actually available to all.

In New York, it's very limited--first-come, first-served, for only very few spots.

Economically, the social costs of not offering pre-school (especially to at-risk kids) are much higher. By paying for this, Stiofan, you're actually going to save money down the line.

(EDIT to add a link to a good presentation on the subject--if you want to watch a 45-minute video http://nieer.org/docs/index.php?DocID=151 )

[Fiona]

(I love Stio too!)

My kids were educated before they ever went to preschool (which started at 3.)
They went so (1) I could work and (2) to gain social skills. Not in that order. :)
It was state funded. If I'd had to pay for it, they would have been home 'til Kindergarten and probably even MORE educated. ;)

[Fiona]

The question is not whether the preschool exists, it's whether it's free--whether it's paid for by the state. Right now, 38 states offer some amount of free preschool, but in only a handful is it actually available to all.

In New York, it's very limited--first-come, first-served, for only very few spots.ummm I wasn't clear? (i'll assume so, it's a thing with me.) It is state funded. = free

Not many states have this?

[Fiona]

Okay, so they want to create MORE state funded (or federally funded) preschools

and take the money from other programs that she doens't agree with..


no new taxes? (that's like saying "trust me" in LA!)

[joseftu]

Not many states have this?
Nope--not many have it for all children.

Some examples (http://nieer.org/faq/index.php?TAid=138):
What states offer preschool to all children?
Georgia was the first state to offer preschool to all 4-year-old children, opening its program for unrestricted enrollment in 1995. The initiative is supported by lottery funds, and 54 percent of the state's 4-year-olds enrolled during 2002-2003.


In 1998, Oklahoma became the second state to open its preschool program to all 4-year-olds, but districts are not required to participate, so the program is not yet available everywhere in the state. Funding flows through the public schools, which receive a per child allotment based on the K-12 funding formula. During 2002-2003, Oklahoma maintained relatively high-quality standards, while serving nearly 60 percent of its 4-year-olds in the state Pre-K program.


New York established a pre-kindergarten program in 1997 with the intention of achieving universal availability after five years, but the program has not been adequately funded to do so, and access remains limited primarily to children from low-income families.


New Jersey and Kentucky target free preschool education to some children, such as those in poverty. New Jersey law mandates free, high-quality preschool for 3- and 4-year-olds living in the state's highest-poverty districts, while Kentucky provides free preschool to 4-year-olds from the state's lowest-income families, and to 3- and 4-year-olds with disabilities.


Florida voters amended the state constitution through a ballot initiative to require that all 4-year-olds be provided with a high-quality preschool education beginning in 2005. The state is now working to develop policies to implement this new initiative.


West Virginia passed legislation to make pre-kindergarten available to all 4-year-olds by 2012. Teachers in this program must attain state certification in early childhood within five years of employment.


Universal preschool is available on a first-come, first-served basis to 4-year-olds in Washington D.C. Los Angeles County is using tobacco taxes to develop a program for the city's 3- and 4-year-olds.
It's getting better--California's Preschool for All movement is only very recent--but there's still more progress to be made.

EDIT--woops! Hold on! You don't have it in California. The Preschool for All Act (Proposition 82) did not pass last June. I thought it did!

[Fiona]

The question is not whether the preschool exists, it's whether it's free--whether it's paid for by the state. Right now, 38 states offer some amount of free preschool, but in only a handful is it actually available to all.

In New York, it's very limited--first-come, first-served, for only very few spots.

Economically, the social costs of not offering pre-school (especially to at-risk kids) are much higher. By paying for this, Stiofan, you're actually going to save money down the line.

(EDIT to add a link to a good presentation on the subject--if you want to watch a 45-minute video http://nieer.org/docs/index.php?DocID=151 )flippant, biased response alert

Yeah, Stio... you are paying so that you can educate all those children of illegal border crossers! ;)

but seriously.. the state funded preschool my kids went to, was about 1/3 "questionable as to status."

[joseftu]

Fi, I need to research this more. Your kids got free pre-school? But the bill didn't pass. Is it a local school district funding, rather than state? Or just limited numbers?

[Stiofán]

Joe there has never been an education tax you weren't for.

I can only look forward to Hillary and her ilk proposing hiring personal tutors to sit at the feet of all pregnant woman and murmur classical lit lessons into their belly buttons.

[ethics]

I can only look forward to Hillary and her ilk proposing hiring personal tutors to sit at the feet of all pregnant woman and murmur classical lit lessons into their belly buttons.

That would be better than spending the same money and sending our men and women to die in the desert.

[Fiona]

Fi, I need to research this more. Your kids got free pre-school? But the bill didn't pass. Is it a local school district funding, rather than state? Or just limited numbers?My kids, 12, 20 and almost 23, all went to preschool on the State of California. Yes, I believe space must have been limited as it was the only one in the area.
2 classes per day x 20 students. The teacher helped start the program in this area. Perhaps if there were more teachers they would have had more schools? Don't know. I'll ask her.

[ShinyTop]

Let's take that same money and use it to teach English for a year to anybody who cannot speak it. Then save many times that amount by not having bi-lingual education and all the other bi-linqual intitiatives in an English speaking country.

[drntdrtydg]

We don't need to start children at an earlier date, we need to make use of the years we have them now. Return to basic educational principals, reduce the overhead and reintroduce discipline so the distractions are a minimum.


It's like money in the bank: the bigger payoff with compound interest over time. You need to form cognitive skills early and help the brain develop. The homes a lot of disadvanted kids from are devoid of stimulation; I'm talking blank dirty walls and an old TV set.
You know me-I'm a mean old SOB. I wouldn't just say this out of cuddley wuv wuv. You're going to get huge IQ benefits that are going to help a great number of them avoid prison and ruin later in life. (http://www.matr.net/article-23491.html)

more.. (http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/stories/2002/07/15/focus4.html)

Research studies indicate that during the earliest years of a child's life, learning capabilities are at their peak. Children who receive quality childcare during this stage have a much greater chance for success throughout life. (http://web2.unt.edu/news/story.cfm?story=7327)

[ethics]

Let's take that same money and use it to teach English for a year to anybody who cannot speak it. Then save many times that amount by not having bi-lingual education and all the other bi-linqual intitiatives in an English speaking country.

I'd be all for that, but I was wondering about the issue in the OP first. :P

[Stiofán]

Yes, and everyone who dies of cancer has eaten carrots too. So what?

I tell you what, spend the tax money you have earmarked for stem cell research on this instead.

[ethics]

It's like money in the bank: the bigger payoff with compound interest over time. You need to form cognitive skills early and help the brain develop. The homes a lot of disadvanted kids from are devoid of stimulation; I'm talking blank dirty walls and an old TV set.
You know me-I'm a mean old SOB. I wouldn't just say this out of cuddley wuv wuv. You're going to get huge IQ benefits that are going to help a great number of them avoid prison and ruin later in life. (http://www.matr.net/article-23491.html)

more.. (http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/stories/2002/07/15/focus4.html)

Research studies indicate that during the earliest years of a child's life, learning capabilities are at their peak. Children who receive quality childcare during this stage have a much greater chance for success throughout life. (http://web2.unt.edu/news/story.cfm?story=7327)

There we go.. Thanks for that.

[Plunge]

That would be better than spending the same money and sending our men and women to die in the desert.

Way to go OT numnut.

[ethics]

I tell you what, spend the tax money you have earmarked for stem cell research on this instead.


Really? You'd be for that?

[ethics]

Way to go OT numnut.

Oh, it's not OT, the funding she wants to use is from getting our troops back home. :) Read the link in the OP, before you call anyone any names there liver lips.

[joseftu]

That would be better than spending the same money and sending our men and women to die in the desert.
Amen, amen, amen.

My kids, 12, 20 and almost 23, all went to preschool on the State of California. Yes, I believe space must have been limited as it was the only one in the area.
2 classes per day x 20 students. The teacher helped start the program in this area. Perhaps if there were more teachers they would have had more schools? Don't know. I'll ask her.
Please do! I'm glad they got the opportunity (would you say that it helped them?).

My daughter went to preschool, too...but we had to pay. Even if it had been available for free, we might have still paid to send her to the same school--it was Jewish, and that was important to us, and it was excellent (teachers with degrees in Early Childhood Ed, small classes, great facilities, lots of trips and experiences with animals and playground time and dress-up and all that good stuff). But we were able to pay (or at least, we were willing to run up the credit card debt for a couple years! ;)), and that's certainly not true for all parents.

[Fiona]

Let me clarify- I'm ALL for education. IF I thought it would really help, I'd be right behind Joe. As my first post states... I don't believe THAT is the biggest source of our problem.

Money needs to be put back into our schools, just as it was taken out. Music and arts programs, field trips, qualified teachers, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

Also I live in an affluent area. Most paid for their kids to go to preschool.

[Plunge]

Amen, amen, amen.


Please do! I'm glad they got the opportunity (would you say that it helped them?).

My daughter went to preschool, too...but we had to pay. Even if it had been available for free, we might have still sent her to the same school--it was Jewish, and that was important to us, and it was excellent (teachers with degrees in Early Childhood Ed, small classes, great facilities, lots of trips and experiences with animals and playground time and dress-up and all that good stuff). But we were able to pay (or at least, we were willing to run up the credit card debt for a couple years! ;)), and that's certainly not true for all parents.

Which goes to my pet peeve, if you can't raise (physically and financially) your children, DON'T HAVE ANY!

[joseftu]

It's a good philosophy, Plunge...but once the "mistake" is made, the kids are here.

Do you want to punish them for their parents' mistake? And even more, do you want to punish all of us, when you could save money by helping them early?

[Plunge]

It's a good philosophy, Plunge...but once the "mistake" is made, the kids are here.

Do you want to punish them for their parents' mistake? And even more, do you want to punish all of us, when you could save money by helping them early?

First, I think raising a child, including education is a parents responsibility. Made a mistake? Fine, raise your child. Can't afford preschool, do it at home. See my post above about that.

Second, the Federal Government should stay the hell out of education. It is a state issue and the individual states should decide how education should be handled in their state. If the state decides to have free preschool, more power to them. If not, so be it.

[Stiofán]

First, I think raising a child, including education is a parents responsibility. Made a mistake? Fine, raise your child. Can't afford preschool, do it at home. See my post above about that.

Second, the Federal Government should stay the hell out of education. It is a state issue and the individual states should decide how education should be handled in their state. If the state decides to have free preschool, more power to them. If not, so be it.

I love you man........................................................ :love:

[Plunge]

First, I think raising a child, including education is a parents responsibility. Made a mistake? Fine, raise your child. Can't afford preschool, do it at home. See my post above about that.

Second, the Federal Government should stay the hell out of education. It is a state issue and the individual states should decide how education should be handled in their state. If the state decides to have free preschool, more power to them. If not, so be it.

I should add this comes from experience. Nicole was an accident. My wife was on the pill and had been ill. She had taken strong antibiotics. At the time, it wasn't known that antibiotics affect the effectiveness of birth control pills.

Presto, there was Nicole. I was an undergrad and working 40 hours a week. Misoon had to quit working as she was far to sick to continue. Nicole was born in the maturnity ICU. We took a loan to pay off the doctor and hospital ahead of time as they gave a 25% discount if you did that. We had no insurance.

Nicole was born and we were dirt poor. Yet, we saved our pennies so she could go to preschool. I at a hell of a lot of baloney for lunch and dinner so we could save. Even with school and work, I spent time with Nicole teaching her. Why? Because she was/is MY daughter and MY responsibility.

People need to buck up and take responsibility, none of this "It Takes a Village (http://www.amazon.com/Takes-Village-Tenth-Anniversary/dp/1416540644/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-1800184-6352959?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179799949&sr=8-1)" bull crap. It takes good, responsible parents.

[Plunge]

I love you man........................................................ :love:

Ditto, as long as no tongue is involved. :biggrin:

[Arc]

A bit of a ramble and maybe a bit OT.

I have never been a parent, except for my beloved Rocket, and he, as we all know doesn't count. Except to me! :)

So my opinion can rightly be questioned given my total lack of personal involvement as a parent. But I was once a kid and my MAIN major is in psychology. So, I have something to base what I think on. But I don't presume to have a parent's knowledge.

First and foremost kids are not adults. (I know, really profound!) But the point to that is nature, evolution, God, or whatever, designed us to be born and develop from birth to adulthood in a certain progression. And being allowed to be a kid is IMO extremely important.

Kids need to be kids with the "fun" and "play" and socialization particular to kids in a certain order for optimal results. It is best to have two loving supporting and mature parents in a safe and loving environment.

Enough rambling: If a particular child's total situation means they can still have the best and needed experiences of being a kid and simultaneously get a "head-start" then I'm for it. But if they lack certain things that I mention or worse are targets of abuse and criticism instead of love and support than things like pre-school are the worse things for them.

You can't put people in boxes, paint with a broad brush and you don't get a second chance to be a kid. And what you experience as a kid will influence you more than anything else the rest of your life.

There is nothing in my life that I believe more sincerely, deeply and passionately than that the greatest accomplishment any adult can do in life, (no exceptions or qualifications), is raise with love and wisdom a child that grows up in love, positive influence, and psychologically and physiologically safety, security and support. To have a kid grow up to be a caring loving decent upright individual of integrity and love is the greatest contribution any of us can make in our lives. If you manage that you have exceeded anything Einstein, or any other genius ever did.

Pre-school should never be mandatory. Optional? Heck yes. But where optional some kids should be enrolled and some should not. No clear cut yes or no. Lots of variables both at home and what is offered.

I know it is a cliché thanks to TV and the like but really--it shouldn't hurt to be a kid. Ever.

Love, support and respect is the goal and my hats are off to all of you who are parents here.

Truly God Bless and all the luck in your endeavors to raise your children.

[ethics]

First, I think raising a child, including education is a parents responsibility. Made a mistake? Fine, raise your child. Can't afford preschool, do it at home. See my post above about that.

Ah yes, many parents are rich enough to either stay at home or have one of the parents stay at home so they can teach their kid. The above is nice, Scott, but it's unrealistic for many parents who "made a mistake".

Second, the Federal Government should stay the hell out of education. It is a state issue and the individual states should decide how education should be handled in their state. If the state decides to have free preschool, more power to them. If not, so be it.

That's a good point. However, she is a STATE Senator and making a proposal for some Federal Funds being diverted to states. You know, like Bush's punish/reward system of No Child Left Behind. Did you rant against that, Scott, or is this strictly because I asked you to leave out who is proposing it and you are doing it anyway?

[ethics]

Enough rambling: If a particular child's total situation means they can still have the best and needed experiences of being a kid and simultaneously get a "head-start" then I'm for it. But if they lack certain things that I mention or worse are targets of abuse and criticism instead of love and support than things like pre-school are the worse things for them.

This is a very fair assessment. Totally agree with it, however, and I am assuming here, I would THINK and hope that the pre-school is primarily a GOOD place for them with good, effective, knowledgeable and caring teachers.

You can't put people in boxes, paint with a broad brush and you don't get a second chance to be a kid. And what you experience as a kid will influence you more than anything else the rest of your life.


Agreed. That WOULD be worse than none.

[Plunge]

That's a good point. However, she is a STATE Senator and making a proposal for some Federal Funds being diverted to states. You know, like Bush's punish/reward system of No Child Left Behind. Did you rant against that, Scott, or is this strictly because I asked you to leave out who is proposing it and you are doing it anyway?


I've always been against federal interference in school programs and I despise the No Child Left Behind Act. It is a hunk of junk that has caused more problems than anything.

I agree with loans for college and pell grants don't particularly bother me. But if the Federal Government is going to give states money for education it should be left to the state as to how to use it.

[ethics]

I've always been against federal interference in school programs and I despise the No Child Left Behind Act. It is a hunk of junk that has caused more problems than anything.

That's good to hear. You are consistent and that's admirable. :)

[drntdrtydg]

I've always been against federal interference in school programs and I despise the No Child Left Behind Act. It is a hunk of junk that has caused more problems than anything.

I agree with loans for college and pell grants don't particularly bother me. But if the Federal Government is going to give states money for education it should be left to the state as to how to use it.

Not familiar with the No child left behind act...and yes the Feds Fah Kop everything they touch but this is really a no brainer to do; minimum of material and staff will still be helpful generally. How did they screw up with the other program?

[Plunge]

Not familiar with the No child left behind act...and yes the Feds Fah Kop everything they touch but this is really a no brainer to do; minimum of material and staff will still be helpful generally. How did they screw up with the other program?

The biggest problem was the freakin standardized testing. It forced teachers to teach for the test and NOT teach students the way the should.

I am VERY proud of my state Governor.

From Wikipedia:On May 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_3), 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005), Utah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah) governor Jon Huntsman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Huntsman%2C_Jr.) signed a measure into state law that allows that state's districts to ignore provisions of the law that conflict with that state's programs, making it the first state to enact such a law. The Department of Education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Education) has threatened to withhold federal education funding as a result.

The Department of Education should be disbanded along with all those who suck on that tit should be fired. Take all that money and allocate it to the states and allow them to use it for education as they see fit. That should be the ONLY restriction, that it be used for education.

[drntdrtydg]

The Department of Education should be disbanded along with all those who suck on that tit should be fired. Take all that money and allocate it to the states and allow them to use it for education as they see fit. That should be the ONLY restriction, that it be used for education.


Fresh air, love it. Thanks.

[tke711]

This is a very fair assessment. Totally agree with it, however, and I am assuming here, I would THINK and hope that the pre-school is primarily a GOOD place for them with good, effective, knowledgeable and caring teachers.

That's exactly how our program is. Our daughter looks forward to her two hours a day there almost as much as she looks forward to play time. The teacher makes a point of making learning fun.

We have to remember that 4-year olds are sponges and learning to them IS fun. They enjoy learning about the things they see around them and take great pride when they get something "down". Almost daily she comes home beaming with pride about how she can spell a word now, or how she knows what 4+5 is. The expression of joy and pride on her face is amazing, and reinforces for us just how important K4 is for her.

Also, to back up to some questions earlier, it is my understanding that K4 is pretty much a local school board decision across the country. There are few, if any, States that have K4 required State-wide. Even in the greater Milwaukee area, not all of the suburbs have it. We happen to live (and that was part of the reason) in a suburb that does have it.

IF (I'll bold and underline it again because it's a big "if") this sort of plan can allow more local school districts to offer voluntary programs like my school board does, and there is a way to pay for it, then I'm all for it. Especially after seeing my daughter now almost complete her K4 program.