Airmobile doctrine during the Vietnam War

[Swamp Fox]

It seems that, during the VN War, when soldier's jump off the choppers, they are to run to their positions, firing their rifles all the way. I understand that they fire their weapons so as to ensure that any hidden enemy would be hit. This, by the way, happened during the Battle of Ia Drang in 1965, a battle made famous by the book and the movie "We were soldiers once, and young."

But, in reality, I think that they would only select a landing site after it was secure (perhaps by air strikes) or deemed secure. Airmobile commanders would not land their troops within firing range of their opponents. And, in any case, those initial soldiers firing off their M-16's probably wouldn't have hit anyone.

So I think that the idea of jumping off and firing their rifles is actually a waste of time. Can anyone enlighten me?

[Advocat]

All commanders will attempt to land troops in a safe area, but there is no guarentee of safety, particularly from snipers.

As I understand it, the doctrine of "blind" or "panic" fire isn't to actually hit anyone, but is simply to try and make them keep their heads down for fear of being hit; the idea being that the noise of fire and spray of bullets will make any snipers keep their heads down for the few seconds until the troops can gain a place of relative safety.

A waste of bullets? Well, if firing a few bursts would increase my chance of going home whole, I'd vote for it! ;)

[Sierra Mike]

Generally speaking, an LZ is prepped before insertion. Types of prep differs from campaign to campaign, but these days, you can be pretty sure it's not going to leave a lot in the general vicinity that can shoot back.

Prep can come in the form of artillery or Air Force bombardment with a widely varied amount and type of munitions. I don't know if Naval bombardment is still available, given that the big battleships have been retired, and I'm not so sure that cruise missiles would be used to soften up an LZ, given their relative cost. But regardless, a whole lot of mud would generally be moved preparatory to moving in troops.

Additionally, Army attack helicopters would pepper the LZ right before insertion, then orbit in top cover. This is what was done during the 101st's big jump out into the regions surrounding Basrah in the first Gulf War.

As far as infantrymen firing their weapons at random objects while offloading, I'm not really sure. I've never received that kind of training, but I can agree with Advocat, if I feel the need to generate some heat, I'd definitely do it.

SM

[Jedi Writer]

Trying to infer anything as doctrine using Vietnam as an example would be a mistake. The best thing that came out of Vietnam were the lessons learned by the genuine professional soldiers such as Powell, Horner and Schwarzkopf and the resulting creation of a professional military that produced the professionalism and skill executed by people like Steve Moore and eventually produced victories like the Gulf War.

Safe LZ--almost an oxymoron! Think of the terrain and then think of the mobility of the enemy combined with limited recon.

There were 12,000 helicopters shot down there. They were nothing more than civilian birds with green paint. (Till the Cobra.)

The unit in the war with the highest casualty rate? Why the 1st Air Cav of course.

[jamming]

The doctrinal term, I am familiar with is supression fire and it was not everyone in the unit firing, but usually one man out of four. It was designed to keep your enemy off balance rather then letting them have an unhurried moment. If you have less time to think in combat the more likely you won't do the right thing.

[Sierra Mike]

And most of those guys were aircrews. :)

Vietnam was the proving ground for heliborne operations, the same way Operation EAGLE CLAW was the proving ground for Special Operations Aviation. NOE didn't even come about until around 1972, and that was one of the reasons the Army took a step back from maturing the AH-1; a single-engine attack bird with a teetering mast system couldn't handle an aggressive NOE ingress/egress.

In Vietnam, they made ingress/egress runs at initial altitudes of over 2,000 feet.

SM

[jamming]

I think I remember that the number of MOH's for chopper crewmen is second only to infantry, but there are less total people trained as crewman.

[Swamp Fox]

Don't get me wrong - if firing those bullets would increase the chances by even 0.001%, then it would be worth it. But, as Steve said, since the LZ would already have been softened up, there would be nothing to fire at or keep down.

So my question really is, does those few bullets increase the chance of survival by even that miniscule percentage?

[Sierra Mike]

Originally posted by jamming
I think I remember that the number of MOH's for chopper crewmen is second only to infantry, but there are less total people trained as crewman. Might be...I only know two of them, a guy named Gary Stenzel (I think) who lost both his hands in the Nam, and a former Major General Pat Brady, who had the temerity to continue rescuing wounded infantryman one night at the expense of two helicopters.

Oh wait, make that three--a fellow warrant named Mike Novosel. Goodness, I forgot one of my own...

SM

[Sierra Mike]

Originally posted by Stanley Foo
Don't get me wrong - if firing those bullets would increase the chances by even 0.001%, then it would be worth it. But, as Steve said, since the LZ would already have been softened up, there would be nothing to fire at or keep down.

So my question really is, does those few bullets increase the chance of survival by even that miniscule percentage? I can answer that with this: a lot of the air assault guys will do a lot of pedal movements when they're bringing their aircraft in. All they're essentially doing is pivoting the aircraft from side to side while maintaining their approach; the general feeling is that a moving target is less likely to be hit than one which is holding steady during descent. I used to think this was total bunk until I read the book Chickenhawk in maybe 1986, 1987...and the author said he did the same thing in the Vietnam era.

SM

[jamming]

*ADAMS, WILLIAM E.

Rank and organization: Major, U.S. Army, A/227th Assault Helicopter Company, 52d Aviation Battalion, 1st Aviation Brigade.
Place and Date: Kontum Province, Republic of Vietnam, 25 May 1971.
Entered Service at: Kansas City, Mo.
Born: 16 June 1939, Casper, Wyo.

Citation: Maj. Adams distinguished himself on 25 May 1971 while serving as a helicopter pilot in Kontum Province in the Republic of Vietnam. On that date, Maj. Adams volunteered to fly a lightly armed helicopter in an attempt to evacuate 3 seriously wounded soldiers from a small fire base which was under attack by a large enemy force. He made the decision with full knowledge that numerous antiaircraft weapons were positioned around the base and that the clear weather would afford the enemy gunners unobstructed view of all routes into the base.

As he approached the base, the enemy gunners opened fire with heavy machine guns, rocket-propelled grenades and small arms. Undaunted by the fusillade, he continued his approach determined to accomplish the mission. Displaying tremendous courage under fire, he calmly directed the attacks of supporting gunships while maintaining absolute control of the helicopter he was flying. He landed the aircraft at the fire base despite the ever-increasing enemy fire and calmly waited until the wounded soldiers were placed on board. As his aircraft departed from the fire base, it was struck and seriously damaged by enemy anti-aircraft fire and began descending.

Flying with exceptional skill, he immediately regained control of the crippled aircraft and attempted a controlled landing. Despite his valiant efforts, the helicopter exploded, overturned, and plummeted to earth amid the hail of enemy fire. Maj. Adams' conspicuous gallantry, intrepidity, and humanitarian regard for his fellow man were in keeping with the most cherished traditions of the military service and reflected utmost credit on him and the U. S. Army.

With people like these the American Nation was made and preserved, and he is just one of many who were Awarded the MOH (http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/Moh1.htm).

[Sierra Mike]

Scope out MG Brady's.....

BRADY, PATRICK HENRY

Rank and organization: Major, U.S. Army, Medical Service Corps, 54th Medical Detachment, 67th Medical Group, 44th Medical Brigade. Place and date: Near Chu Lai, Republic of Vietnam, 6 January 1968. Entered service at: Seattle, Wash. Born: 1 October 1936, Philip, S. Dak. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty, Maj. Brady distinguished himself while serving in the Republic of Vietnam commanding a UH-1H ambulance helicopter, volunteered to rescue wounded men from a site in enemy held territory which was reported to be heavily defended and to be blanketed by fog. To reach the site he descended through heavy fog and smoke and hovered slowly along a valley trail, turning his ship sideward to blow away the fog with the backwash from his rotor blades. Despite the unchallenged, close-range enemy fire, he found the dangerously small site, where he successfully landed and evacuated 2 badly wounded South Vietnamese soldiers. He was then called to another area completely covered by dense fog where American casualties lay only 50 meters from the enemy. Two aircraft had previously been shot down and others had made unsuccessful attempts to reach this site earlier in the day. With unmatched skill and extraordinary courage, Maj. Brady made 4 flights to this embattled landing zone and successfully rescued all the wounded. On his third mission of the day Maj. Brady once again landed at a site surrounded by the enemy. The friendly ground force, pinned down by enemy fire, had been unable to reach and secure the landing zone. Although his aircraft had been badly damaged and his controls partially shot away during his initial entry into this area, he returned minutes later and rescued the remaining injured. Shortly thereafter, obtaining a replacement aircraft, Maj. Brady was requested to land in an enemy minefield where a platoon of American soldiers was trapped. A mine detonated near his helicopter, wounding 2 crewmembers and damaging his ship. In spite of this, he managed to fly 6 severely injured patients to medical aid. Throughout that day Maj. Brady utilized 3 helicopters to evacuate a total of 51 seriously wounded men, many of whom would have perished without prompt medical treatment. Maj. Brady's bravery was in the highest traditions of the military service and reflects great credit upon himself and the U.S. Army.This guy is max hooah if ever there was one, and in real life, he's a real pussycat.

SM

[jamming]

I read a book that details that action and in a Roleplaying Game I played a character sort of based upon him and his feats there. I figured he be rather laidback in real life, was I right?

[Sierra Mike]

Oh, definitely so, but I understand that he was a real hardcharger when he became a general officer. Only the really good ones or the really bad ones get drummed out as a two-banger.

Of course, I've also heard from others that he was a real pansy or prick, too, depending upon the reporting individual. But the military's no different politically from any other institution; some people think a certain guy has the Midas touch, while others think he's pond scum.

Hal Moore is the same way, and he's the guy Mel Gibson played in We Were Soldiers. Gibson was totally over the top in that one, but hey, that's Hollywood...

SM

[jamming]

Got a book that you might enjoy "Ghost of the Air" Martin Caidin, helped him pick out his last kitten at the humane society near home before he passed away. He gave me a copy, for the help and the fact he almost ran me over once in a landing pattern on a uncontrolled airfield with his old Nazi German Air Force One, that he and a few friends bought. I sat in the chair that Hitler road in to the Russian Front, Rome, and Paris.

It was rather awe inspiring in a wierd way, to know that he had sat there in that same chair. While he tried to impose his world view on the world. It was like using something of Stalin's or some other sociopath, like both revolting and fascinating at the same time. I guess it was something like why people look at traffic accidents.

[Jedi Writer]

Originally posted by jamming
Got a book that you might enjoy "Ghost of the Air" Martin Caidin, .... Wow, there is a name I've not read or heard for a long time. Great writer.

[Coot]

What Steve said about LZ's being prepped for insertion is pretty much the case. I cannot recall an instance where there was an issue getting us on the ground. Of course, I wasn't infantry and the typical insertion LZ's, like LZ English for example, weren't our normal fair.

Extraction is another matter. I recall a time or 3 playing hide and seek for a day or so because the extraction point was too hot.

[ShinyTop]

After the movie with Mel Gibson I went on the net and searched for Hal Moore. The facts of the battle matched the movie near as I could tell. Now the language, mannerisms, and attitude I could not tell. But when his wife and the others began telling wives their husbands were killed I lost it.

During my second tour I was a company commander in the signal battalion supporting the Cav, 13th Signal Battalion. We had airborne radio relay for insertions and could listen to much of the action. But my tour was in 70-71 so I missed the period of action in the movie by years. We were in III Corps during my time, Phuoc Vinh, Long Binh, and Song Be for the three brigades. My last assignment with the Cav was turning over the signal equipment to the ARVN as the cav went home. I had months left on my tour.

[ShinyTop]

OT, but I had a platoon supporting the 3rd Brigade at Song Be. The grunts would not share their latrine with my guys so we built them one and sent it up to Song Be. Then the grunts began using it. So my troops, like good signal types will do, placed nails in the seat and wired them to a TA-312. They let the next grunt get good and comfortable before they started cranking. Now the height of the johns was only tall enough to sit. So when the grunt came off the seat he cracked his skull on the 2x4 across the roof. When he came down my boys were still cranking so he came up again. By that time they realized the screaming was from the cut out latrine so they quit cranking. While their victim was being medevacced they removed all evidence. Of course, my battalion commander and I still had to face one irate full bird but no proof of guilt so nobody was charged. We did laugh our asses off.

[jamming]

Coot and Shiny, as Mikepd often says thank you for your time there and for your associates who came back and taught people like Steve and others the jobs they did. You carried the ball when it was your time, as others did before, did after, do now, and in the future. I may not always agree with you, but I always will respect you for that effort.

[Sierra Mike]

Well said! You guys are the ur-hooahs. Thanks for laying the groundwork so the guys who taught me my stuff actually knew what the hell they were talking about.

SM