Let Turkey into the EU

[Swamp Fox]

This week's Economist talks about Turkey's eventual (I hope) entry into the European Union. I think it's abhorrent that it would not be allowed in - it's been a fundamental part of European history, and it's been a loyal Nato ally all these decades, so it should not be excluded just because it's predominantly muslim. And, let's not kid ourselves, there's that racist element in why the EU is so reluctant to allow that country in.

[jamming]

Leopoldo is going to burst a vein, Stanley. Now Canadians are picking on the EU too. Nice to see the US doesn't get all the Canadian Attention.

[Robert Harris]

Perhaps we should give Trent Lott a graceful way to leave the Senate. Send him off as the US liaison to the EU. Gets him out of the country and he can give them advice on how to deal with minorities.

[ethics]

Originally posted by Stanley Foo
This week's Economist talks about Turkey's eventual (I hope) entry into the European Union. I think it's abhorrent that it would not be allowed in - it's been a fundamental part of European history, and it's been a loyal Nato ally all these decades, so it should not be excluded just because it's predominantly muslim. And, let's not kid ourselves, there's that racist element in why the EU is so reluctant to allow that country in.

100% agree with everything you said here. But it's all US' fault you know.

Before it was Soviet Union the boogie man, and now it's the US. Perhaps EU should check it's own skeletons in the closet before pointing at others.

[Robert Harris]

Let's not simplify too much. This is a tough, messy political problem. Muslims now make up a significant minority in many EU countries and are increasingly creating political headaches, refusing to assimilate, demanding all sorts of things like making Arabic an official language for some purposes. Turkey is a potential source of a huge number of immigrants woul wouild rather live in France or Germany than where they are. Opening the borders must look like a nightmare to the Euro pols. The potential political problems and economic factors -- costs of absorbing a horde of new folks including welfare benefits and the like until they get integrated into economies already suffering high unemployment must scare the pants of those guys. I doubt that Canada would welcome a million or so Turks in a short period, either.

This is not nasty racism, although there is some of that, too -- so much as simply not knowing how on earth to deal with a mix of such different cultures, and real fear of the cost and difficulty of absorbing them.

That said, I would like to see Turkey in the EU. Be nice to pass back and forth wwitho0ut going through passport control and the like. But I don't know how to solve the problems, either.

[ethics]

Bob, if EU ADMITTED that right from the start, I wouldn't say boo. However, when they point their fingers in Israel and US about how Israel and US treats Muslims and then, lo and behold has their own Turkish contingency to play with, they look more like the asses they are than anything else.

And then there's the hypocrites to defend EU in their pathetic excuses of "Human Rights" abuses by Turkey.

[Leopoldo Niilus]

Robert Harris, sir :)

Methinks you said all there is to say.

Thank you kindly.

Leopoldo

[Robert Harris]

Why thank you Leopoldo.

And Leon, I agree that the Eureopeans are playing word games to look more noble than they are -- not uncommon. But we must admit that our political scum -- er, I mean leaders -- do the same sort of thing all the time. Runs in the blood of all pols, I think.

[claire]

Hi Robert,

Two very good well balanced answers.
:)

[MisManager]

Originally posted by Robert Harris
Let's not simplify too much. This is a tough, messy political problem. Muslims now make up a significant minority in many EU countries and are increasingly creating political headaches, refusing to assimilate, demanding all sorts of things like making Arabic an official language for some purposes.

This is not nasty racism, although there is some of that, too -- so much as simply not knowing how on earth to deal with a mix of such different cultures, and real fear of the cost and difficulty of absorbing them.

Of course, this is a problem that the US has been grappling with for quite some time. Giscard's statement probably came closest to what many European politicians are feeling (and, gosh darn it, doesn't he sound a lot like Trent Lott??).

Multicultural assimilation is not easy. To be honest, I'm not convinced that it's even possible. A culture serves as the backbone for a polity. The EU is experiencing this problem now.

I, too, would like to see Turkey admitted into the EU. Of course, I still can't see the EU working in its current state anyway, so Turkey's omission may not be a bad thing for Turkey (despite how it looks at face value). The EU lacks legitimacy in the eyes of very many of its citizens (most of whom have never had the ability to even vote on whether their country should join). It is pulled in diametrically opposite directions by its various member states. Admitting more countries is, IMHO, folly before sorting out its existing problems (such as the CAP).

The rebuff of Turkey was unfortunate, but not unexpected. Until the EU decides what it wants to be, it cannot answer the many questions that surround Turkey's admission (such as cultural issues, the geopolitical situation, etc.).

Eric

[ethics]

Well said, Eric. :)

[Coot]

I concur with Robert on this. I would further emphasize that the EU in its current configuration has done no more than act in its own best interests extant. As such, there really is nothing unfortunate about this...particularly when one considers Turkey's latest internal political shift.

[ethics]

Originally posted by Coot
As such, there really is nothing unfortunate about this...particularly when one considers Turkey's latest internal political shift.

Democratically choosing a leader is a horror story. :rolleyes:

[Coot]

Originally posted by ethics
Democratically choosing a leader is a horror story. :rolleyes: It should be obvious that whatever the Turk's choose to do with respect to their own government can and will have substantial implications as to how they are perceived by their European neighbors. Again, there's nothing wrong with the EU acting in its own interests.

[Robert Harris]

Here is an example of on eof the probleems attendant on acquiring a large muslim population.

MUSLIM WOMEN WITHOUT PASSPORTS FACING DIFFICULTIES IN TATARSTAN. A group of Muslim women from Kazan have complained to the chief inspector of the federal Interior Ministry regarding the refusal of the republic's passport service to accept photographs of women in headscarves for their passports, islam.ru reported on 16 December. Zulfii Fatkhullina of the Union of Muslim Women said Muslim women who have refused to have their passport photos taken without headscarves have faced difficulties because they don't have passports. One woman was reportedly refused admittance to the maternity ward of a local hospital, while others cannot find work or receive state-subsidized medical care. JAC
From:
RFE/RL NEWSLINE Vol. 6, No. 235, Part I, 17 December 2002

We have at least one case here in the US of a woman suing because a state insists on a photo with face uncovered for a driver's license.

[ShinyTop]

How can a passport or driver's license picture be effective or mean anything if it does not identify the wearer? This kind of crap really wears thin. Think of the number of terrorists who could dress that way if we allowed travel on passports without pics. But damn, those woman must be either very beautiful or very ugly for the men to insist on hiding their faces.

[Robert Harris]

Originally posted by ShinyTop
How can a passport or driver's license picture be effective or mean anything if it does not identify the wearer?

Good question. I guess the only answer is that Allah knows who they are, so mere secular authorities should mind their own business.

[Sierra Mike]

LOL!!!

SM

[Basilio]

Well, here is the way I see the idea of admitting Turkiye to the European Union.... Geographically it was argued that only 4% of Turkey is in Europe, but frankly all of Cyprus is in Southwest Asia, the borders of Europe are kind of arbitrary....
I think Turkey should be made to show results in terms of its human rights situation and not simply pass legislation. Life must improve significantly for the Kurds otherwise they will want to leave Turkey en masse for Western Europe. If the human rights situation improves, more Turks would rather stay in their homeland. As far as poverty, I would dare say there is less poverty in Romania. Turkey needs to demonstrate progress and as far as its borders with Iraq and Syria before they get admitted, they will have to upgrade their security on the border like Poland has done with its eastern europe.
As far as religion, the EU will eventually admit Bosnia and Albania which has a sizable Muslim population. I don't think religious differences should be allowed to divide people.....I do think Turkey must give more cultural rights to the Kurds, allow women with headscarves to attend colleges but while maintaining the strict separation of religion and state....
It can all be worked out, but the Turkish must wait because they need to prove they can integrate.....

[ethics]

Unreal.

Out of all people, Basilio nails the issues head on.

Good post.

[Coot]

I don't think anything is 'nailed'. This isn't a social club we're talking about, it's a commonwealth of nations. Said commonwealth has every right to look to its own commonality for reasons to exist...be it culture or economic benefit. I see no upside for the EU to admit Turkey, and a rather substantial potential downside. As membership is, or should be decided on the benefits to the Eu for membership, what are they if Turkey is admitted? I don't see any benefit to the EU, while I see substantial benefits to Turkey. What exactly does Turkey have to bring to the game?

[ethics]

Coot, my remarks was towards a European like Leopoldo, who danced around the issue, and a Canadian like Basilio who explained it better and more frank.

Not sure where this reaction of yours came out of but...

As for what Turkey has to bring to the table. Being in a strategic site where the Western countries are constantly vying to use its airspace, I'd say that's a biggie. Being a NATO partner is a biggie. Being a Muslim AND Democratic country is a biggie as well.

What does Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Bulgaria, etc... bring to the table?

[jamming]

Or for that matter Luxembourg? Which has been a member of NATO at least since the 1960's? Also who is an EU member.

[Coot]

I can see your strategic points as being of value, if and when NATO ceases to exist, or should Turkey decide to exit NATO. Being both a Muslim and a democratic state is quite a different issue. As they have recently elected a more fundamentalist government, that should slow down any further consideration.

Furthermore, I would offer up that the German people have experienced negative side affects from the influx of Turks. Namely, that since the migrating Turks are willing to work for less, German citizens are in more difficult straits. The value of their labor gets restructured such that their labor is worth only what industry is willing to pay the Turks. If there aren't enough Turks, well, business can always import more Turks.

As to the Eastern European states, i can only submit that the people are both educated and willing to be participatory partners in the economic growth of the EU...unlike Turkey.

My argument here is no less than my argument with the WTO and NAFTA. Both of these institutions are driven by pure economics and as such, they see the entire planet as nothing more than a complex source of resources...of which they'd like nothing more than to make it less complex.

IMHO, anything that furthers the plan of globalization, does so by mass redistribution of wealth. Such redistribution in actuality nullifies countries and the people that live in them.

Work hard? Work hard and get rewarded for that work? Maybe, but more likely, the idea is that you work hard and then get a boot in your ass for your efforts. I'm on the side of the European workers on this one...solidly on their side.

[ethics]

Originally posted by Coot
[B]I can see your strategic points as being of value, if and when NATO ceases to exist, or should Turkey decide to exit NATO. Being both a Muslim and a democratic state is quite a different issue. As they have recently elected a more fundamentalist government, that should slow down any further consideration.

Fundemental? What is that mean? The people chose a more pius government, one which will continue to keep the religion out of the government but one that's more lenient to the rules of those that choose to be religious.

Turkey has gone the opposite way with their religious people, punishing them, belittling them, making them do what their religion forbids. There is very little religious freedom in Turkey and that has been government sponsored. What happened now is that the people chose a more lenient road for the religious.

I see nothing wrong with that but if EU decides to use that as an excuse, I will throw it back in their hypocritical faces.

As to the Eastern European states, i can only submit that the people are both educated and willing to be participatory partners in the economic growth of the EU...unlike Turkey.

And what is behind this statement?

[Coot]

You can call it 'pious' if you wish, but the fact is that the new government in Turkey has direct ties to Islamic fundamentalists. The one thing that will discourage their indulgance in the excesses is the military. The Turkish military is strictly secular and as such, the new government rules with the consent of the military.

The last time I spent any appreciable time in Turkey was 1981, and things may have changed in 21 years.

While literacy rates in Turkey are higher than most other islamic states, the education level of the average Turk is substantially lower than the EU. Germany is currently bearing the brunt of an influx of undereducated Turks taking jobs for less money than a German would be willing to work for.

Then there are the Genelevs. State sponsored brothels that prematurely killing scores of Turkish women. While there are some genelevs where the women work voluntarily, most involve the 'selling' of a woman into service to work off debts or in some cases to provide for a family.

Women who voluntarily go to work in the genelevs keep about 40% of the take with the rest being split between the operator and the state. Cost...about $20 per 'encounter'...life expectancy of the wormen...about 40.

My prejudice as to whether or not Turkey should be admitted to the EU may be based on old information, but my suspicions are that it hasn't changed a lot. I see a lot more downside rather than upside for the EU should Turkey be admitted.