Faith in God. What does it mean?

[Coriolis]

In trying to think how to broach this topic, I could only come up with the following -- First let me share something with you.

I grew up Protestant, in the Anglican Church. My family I would not describe as an over-the-top religious bunch, but it was always there. Church on Sunday, Sunday school classes as a kid, confirmation in my early teens (catechism to you Catholics), you know, that sort of thing. I remember Sunday school classes, and bringing home these little booklets with bible stories which we were supposed to get something from, generally a moral of some sort I guess. But I mainly daydreamed in church and Sunday school. My mother, who was the more devout parent (my father only went to church on Christmas) was very adamant that her children hold strong to a “faith in God”, and develop an unfettered “love of Jesus Christ the savior”. It was never shoved down our throats, just highly encouraged. This was, after all, how she was brought up. So I felt compelled to take church seriously, and to love Jesus and put my faith in God. It never made sense to me, but I pretended it did. As I got older (in my early teens) I attended a church group of youths, mainly by “nagging encouragement” but also because I guess I wanted to try. But again, always felt on the outside. I was lacking a fundamental component that all the others appeared to have seemingly without effort -- faith.

Although I was unable to analyze it at the time, without faith in God I could not love Jesus. I could not love Jesus because I did not accept in my heart that Jesus was the son of God. The stark realization that I was not by definition a "Christian" came to me in later years, but at the time it was simply lack of faith. It became clear to me, this lack of faith, through my prayer practices, well before I truly understood my beliefs (or lack thereof). It all started by feeling excessively burdened by having to say my prayers at night, but feeling guilty for not saying them. So I started to skip nights -- every second night became a prayer night. That became too burdensome, but not wanting to skip too many nights, I started saying a weeks worth of prayers once a week. That’s right, I’d repeat them seven times! Well, it was not long after this that I finally faced the music and realized this church and God and Jesus thing just wasn’t working out for me. And for the first time in my life I felt free. Not free as in “now I’ll just do anything I damn well please” (the basic commandments taught by the bible did make sense to me on a fundamental level, though I never truly understood what coveting my neighbors ass was all about), but free from the guilt of not having “faith”. I was probably about 13 or 14 when this happened.

So now I’m 37, approaching the start of middle age (Christ, parish the thought!). I am a decent, humble person (though I know at least one person here who thinks otherwise, but that’s ok). I do not steal, I do not lie (within reason, of course), I respect my elders, and I respect people in general. I am fair. I do not boast about my positive qualities, nor do I try to hide my negative qualities. I do not kill. Essentially I live my life pretty much according to an ethic that fits pretty much into all the major religions. Yet, I do not have faith in God. I did not say I do not believe in a god (note lower case “g”), I just do not have faith in one. I do not love Jesus, though I am interested in Jesus as a person. I’m sure he was a great person, like many other great people who came before and after him. But I do not “love” him. And I think it’s safe to say I never will.

So, what does faith in God, Allah, Vishnu, Buddah, the creator, mean to you? Is it something you can rationalize, or just feel? How does it factor into who you are as a person? If you lost your faith, what would happen to you?

I don’t want to limit this to a discussion on Christrianity. I’d like to hear from those of Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, etc. faiths, as well as agnostics and atheists. And I know this can be a touchy topic for some, but I’m also hoping we can have an intelligent, open minded, discussion.

<small>Also, I'm not even sure this is right forum for this discussion, so mods feel free to move elsewhere, as long as everyone can participate.</small>

[HaYwIrE]

I was born and raised a Southern Baptist. Although I do still hold many of the morals upheld by the Christian faith, I no longer believe in God in the Biblical sense.

At first, I thought he was just another Santa Claus/Easter Bunny story. Then I came to believe that God, Allah, Buddah or any other "man-made" God is nothing more than humanity's fear that death is the end.

People hope and "pray" for something better than what they see on Earth. I think that many think that if they pray hard enough, they'll have it handed to them. Then you have the ones who live the "gospel life"... work hard to live within the guidelines that their God has set forth for them.

Religion sucks. It's nothing more than politics thrown to destroy true spirituality. I think George Carlin sums it up pretty well when he stated...

"<i>Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man who lives up in the sky... who watches everything you do every single minute of every day. And he has ten specific things that he does not want you to do. And if you disobey any of these ten rules, he has a special place set aside for you full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send you to live and suffer and choke and burn and scream and cry for ever and ever until the end of time.....

But he loves you. :huh:

He loves you and he needs <b>MONEY</b>! He always needs money!

He's all powerful... all knowing... all seeing and all wise... some how... <b><i>JUST CAN'T HANDLE MONEY</b></i>?!?!?!

Religion takes in billions of dollars... They pay no taxes... and they always need a little more. :huh:

But ya know... When it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God who created each of us in his own image and likeness, loves us very much and keeps a close eye on things. But I gotta tell ya... the more ya look around... the more you look at things... you've gotta realize...

Something is fucked up. :mad:

War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, poverty, filth, torture crime, corruption and the Ice Capades. :huh:

Something is definately wrong here. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like this do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kinda shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude!

Just between you and I... This guy would have been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago! And by the way... I say this "<b>guy</b>" because I firmly believe that after looking at these results... if there is a God, it <b>HAS</b> to be a <b><u>man</u></b>. No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this!

Sooooo....

I think that most resonable people would agree that, after looking at these results and if there is a God he's at least incompetent and just <b>MAYBE</b> doesn't give a shit......</i>"

Yeah, I guess you could say I've lost my "faith" in the idea that an almighty entity exists. And if he does, he's an asshole.

[ditch]

Coriolis, Speaking from a Christian perspective, I don't think that there is a rational basis to religious faith. Either you have faith in your religion or you rationalise and then you find that you cannot do both at the same time. You have to put reason and logic aside if you are to have faith in a Christian God. Like you guys, I was bouht up as a Christian but for me there were too many conflicts with sense, logic and rationale and faith. Faith lost out. I never could and still cannot understand AT ALL, the sense of saying that God so loved us that he gave his son to die for our sins???????? Can anyone explain the reasoning here? What good was done when Christ died?

As for other religions and why they have the strength of belief in their respective gods, I can but guess.

[ethics]

Great topic, Cor, (and great Avatar) and instead of giving you the same thing as Haywire did (I've quoted that Carlin bit for years now) I'd rather hear it from the more religious folk of this forum.

Personally, I think that religion has been used, abused, and spat upon -- rightly and wrongly from all over the world, from the entire years of our existence. But I do recognize a need for it.

Now belief in a higher order, or deity is something I believe in. It's not intelligent design, but I believe in powers beyond our comprehension.

No, no invisible man is controlling everyone and listening to their prayers. But there is some form of an entity that makes sure that the planets spin the way they should and rotate around other planets. If it is done now, or was done in the design of the universal bodies, I do not know. The foundation is built, it's there.

[bruzzes]

I too was brought up in an organized religion. In my case it was the Roman Catholic church. I attended a catholic elementary school, was an altar boy and sang in the church choir. There were periods of time when I was quite devout and attended church daily.

I "lost that faith" at 20 yrs of age due to a disagreement with God on what I considered my wants and needs.

My life was forever changed by reading a book by Herman Hesse called "Siddhartha." I had been struggling with the philosophical questions of who am I and why am I here, and this book made sense to the chaotic world around me. This book introduced me to the concept of re-incarnation. That concept was the key that married the religious content of the Catholic Church teachings to the radical perspective of the Eastern religions.

The concept was important because it forced me to look at all the different types of people here on Earth and to understand that basically we are all a small part of the whole, and that whole is God. "The whole I", or if you prefer the word "HOLY". It taught me about science and how various vibrations fields exists. Just as we see only a limited spectrum of visible light, I can aquait that analogy to the physical world. Having discovered a way to learn that invisible to our eyes there are other spectrums of light such as ultra light and infra light correlate to the thought that higher vibrations of physical matter can also exist that are also invisible to our eyes. One can label this the astral field where ghosts may exist and dreams come forth. This explains to me how the angels can exist on a higher level of vibrational fields than the astral, and how they can lower their vibration to become visible in our physical world.

The ideas presented by the Christian religions and the bible can, as we know , have numerous interpretations. My favorite is the verse that Man should have dominion over the birds in the air, the fish in the sea, the animals of the earth...
This concept was always puzzling to me until I saw those words with different meanings. Looked at this way, Man should have dominion over the birds in the air can mean man must have control over the "Thoughts in his head". The fish in the sea can mean man must have control over his "emotions" and of course man must have control over his "appetites" or lower nature.

This helps me understand that as we must be perfect to enter the kingdom of heaven it is necessary to learn and overcome the baser elements of our nature. To become perfect in one lifetime must be quite rare. The karma we all hear about comes from those lessons learned and the lessons one has not mastered.

I am sure I could go on for many pages on this philosophy, but I realize how foreign it may sound to many.

What helps me in my time of need, (the soul searching), is that both the Buddha and Mary Madeline had issues in their life that were considered grievous "sins", they both were able to learn or overcome those lessons.

Although faith must sometimes be without rhyme or reason, underneath it all is the purpose of it's existence. To carry us along in times of need .( or misunderstood direction)

I better stop now before I confuse you all...;)

[jamming]

Oh boy a religious thread, that is or isn't down the toliet already!

This is what I wrote about this issue one time and I don't think I can improve on it that much:

Actually, I prefer to think of it as religion and faith, religion is what you do and faith is what you have. I am kind of down on my own heritage of organized religion at the moment, which I feel has strayed too far from its original strengths. However, my faith has never been stronger in that there is some higher power than man which exists.

One of my favorite quotes that embodies, faith comes from the show Babylon 5, when one of the characters talks about the Universe and Fairness.

"I use to think that the Universe should be fair and we get what we deserve, then I thought what if it was and we are? Now I take great comfort in the fact the Universe is unfair."
:thumbsup:

Each one of us, regardless of religion, are on a journey of faith and we are not on the same path of that journey. Ultimately we are hopefully heading to the same place. Some stand at the side of the road and say, "this further and no farther"; some say, "what journey?"; some are wondering, "which path?"; some start down one path and then decide that another is better. Altogether, the journey is there for whoever decides to embark upon at some point in their life. I don't believe we make it there while living, but at some point we reach the crest of the divide between having faith and not. At that point the journey becomes easier and we can see on to the goal. In my religious background it is called "going on to perfection." Good Luck with your own journey!

Second thoughts on the issue.
Ultimately the road finds you as much as you find the road. You have to listen, see, touch, smell, taste, and sometimes use that sense beyond the physical to perceive the road. But I think I might be taking this allegory too far now.

Like any allegory, it is similar but not the exact same thing, but allegories do wonderful things in that they allow you to think along the same line and find the answers for yourself. Some fellow back a few years wrote in a pretty good book, "Seek and ye shall find." Each generation can build upon the previous generations journey, but the problem seems to be more the lack of any education about what people have learned previously.

I am sure that many people reading this know what "C++" is but do the know who Karl Barth is and what did he say about faith, do they read "Why Bad things happen to good people," or "Your God is too small?" I fear that we are doomed to repeat our mistakes because no one searches out for the answers, that others have all ready found. It is like we don't bother reading the roadmap that others have made covering the same terrain we are going on the journey over. Instead of rejecting the bad about a particular belief system, we reject the whole system. Hopefully we will find a way not to do this in the future, but we fail that particular test right now.


My final thoughts
People have the same intense feelings about religion that they do about politics. What I tried to do here is neuter the key words that provoke those types of reactions. To take the debate away from the same tired old clichés, that obfuscate what the search of faith is about. So the Athiest, Agnostic, Animist, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Wiccan, Pagan, Deist and others can discuss it without old antipathies coming to the fore. (this list of faiths is not complete)

We must concentrate in the future about what unites us as people, rather than what divides us. Every one should have the right to freely believe. It appears to me that those who deny others that right are afraid that their religion couldn't stand without force to compel it. That is sad and makes people distrustful of even beginning the journey to faith at all. I guess what I am saying is let religion be free market and I bet that all religions would benefit from that, including the ones in areas of monopolies. That doesn't mean that we should move faith out of our lives, but if we grant that freedom to one religion we should grant that freedom to all, even the religions that some others may find objectionable.

Don't you have faith in your religion? I have faith in the original of mine, the one it has evolved into has become critically ill, with hollow ritual and political correctness. Neither are ritual or political correctness bad in and of themselves but when they place more importance on those than the journey of faith, then religion misses that mark. Faith should be more important than what things get you there, for faith is your relationship with the universe and religion is merely a vehicle of man's making to help him understand his place in the universe or his faith.

However, let the Journey begin or get you own allegory and go for it, and hopefully to borrow from the old spiritual, "when the roll is called up yonder, We'll meet there."
:happy: :happy: :happy:

[Frodo Lives]

Originally posted by HaYwIrE

Religion sucks. It's nothing more than politics thrown to destroy true spirituality. I think George Carlin sums it up pretty well when he stated...
I agree with you 100%. Religion is a tool created to control people. If their is a God, I am sure this is NOT how he planed things to be. Maybe I am wrong, maybe God is a totalitarian dictator who wants to rule with an iron fist, but I doubt it. I really hope their is a hell, because I know many people who really deserve to live their for a couple millennium.

[rowd]

Coriolis,

I wondered and still do at times if I have the capacity to believe in God. Most of the time I do but like any other human I have doubt in my life.
Science tells me that gravity holds the universe and most other things together.
Can I see gravity? hold it? touch it? taste it? hear it?.......no.
Do I believe it exists......yes. Why? because I have seen many small examples of it's existence, ...and though I cannot prove it.......I believe.
When it comes to God, the Father, the Trinity,.....I believe.
Why? Because I have seen many small examples in my life. Can I prove it? No.
But........I believe.
In my perspective and opinion, until you have a personal experience with the power and touch of God, you will have a very hard time believing in his existence.
All I can say to you is:
Seek and you will Find............Knock and the Door will be Opened
If you are sincere......in your heart..........the Truth will become evident to you in your life.
Good Luck:thumbsup:

[Misu]

I'm not religious, but I have faith. Does that make sense?

I rebelled early on in life - I was about 13, 14, and going to youth group, in preparation for my confirmation - I finally decided I had had enough of my church (New Apostle - not many of us around), and stopped going. I never got confirmed.

If you ask my mother, she'll tell you that the bad shit in my life started happening around this time, because I stopped going to church. For a while, I even believed that. But if you ask me now, I'll tell you the bad shit happened in my life because I was 14, 15 years old, I thought I knew everything, and didn't have the intelligence to see that the people around me were trouble. I needed the bad shit to happen to me in order to knock some sense into me.

I don't like religion. I feel about religion like Freud felt about it - it's the opiate of the people. A tool used by the rich a long time ago to control the uneducated peons that made up their towns and kingdoms. A long time has passed since those days, and the common person is more educated now than ever before - and yet, those in positions of authority in organized religion either don't see it, or refuse to accept it. I see the pedophile priest scandals as the beginning of the end for the Catholic religion. I don't necessarily believe it to be such a bad thing.

I still have my faith, though. For a long time, I thought I didn't. But it's been there all along. It had to be, otherwise I am sure I would have gone through with my suicide attempts. I've been through a lot in my 27 years of life, and the fact that I'm still here is proof (to me anyway) that God was with me. Bad things happened to me, yes, but I'm not going to take that as proof that God doesn't exist. I actually take that as proof that God DOES exist - I made it out alive, didn't I?

Bad things happen all the time. That's not God's fault. We have free will - we make choices every day, and for every choice, there is a consequence. For every situation we're confronted with, we have the choice to take it anywhere we want. That means wars, famine, poverty, etc etc, those are all the consequences of the choices people we put in power have made.

I do think that because we're human, we need bad things to happen in order for us to learn. You can't tell when something's good until something bad happens. You don't truly appreciate what you have until it's gone. Sadly, that is our nature. But I don't hold God responsible for the choices I've made and the bad things that have happened.

Yes, I've been angry at God many times - especially after my father died - I was angry at God because God 'let it happen'. But the truth of the matter is, my father died because he was sick and chose not to tell us what was wrong. It wasn't God's fault my father didn't confide in his family - it was my dad's fault. And my dad was a human being, fallible to the very end. And it wasn't God's fault that my father got sick - it was my dad's fault, for living the lifestyle of a smoker and alcoholic.

It's easy to blame God when things go wrong, or say there is no God because bad things happen. It's always easier to pass the blame onto someone else than to look inside oneself and see the truth - that every single one of us is responsible for our actions, both individually and collectively. Until we each take responsibility for our actions and what those actions mean in the grand scheme of things (ie, their consequences), we'll never really grow.

[Steve]

"Faith in God" - an interesting concept.

I came to my faith relatively late in life, around 33 or so. I was not raised in a religious family and we never went to any services of any kind. I am not "born again", nor was I proselytized or otherwise "led" into a particular religion.

I found the convictions of my faith after many years of reading about different faiths, organized religions, and belief systems; after many years of observing the natural world around me; after many years of paying attention to the interactions of people around me; and, please excuse the cliche, after many years of soul-searching.

I came to the, for me, inevitable conclusion that God exists. Certain behaviors are expected of us, or at least desired. There is an afterlife of some kind, separate from the physical body.

I chose a liberal denomination of Christianity because its inclusive nature most closely aligned with the decisions and conclusions I had reached for myself.

I am not embarrassed to admit that during a time of great personal turmoil and anguish, I cried out to God and received an answer. A "voice" "spoke" within me, saying everything would be alright and a wonderful calm descended upon me. Everything did turn out fine.

Was it actually God speaking to me? I can't say for sure. I believe it could have been. I do know that at a time when I needed help, and asked for it, something happened that helped me.

Now, I'm no fool. I firmly believe in taking responsibility for my life and my actions. Relying upon the Lord to provide is simply foolish. Yet, when I needed that extra boost, it was there.

I haven't answered your central question, Coriolis. There may be no answer. For me, the closest I could come to a comprehensive answer is that "faith in God" is the belief in a supreme being who you turn to when you have nowhere else to turn.

[Coriolis]

Wow! This is great. I'm at work now and only checking in, but look forward to reading (and re-reading) each response tonight when I get home.

[Techie2000]

I became an atheist at an earlier age than most people who become atheist. I can't remember exactly when it happened, but I think somewhere between 8-9. The same age most people stopped believing in Santa Claus, I stopped believing in a god.

I started to get raised as a Roman Catholic. I had to go to catechism (aka CCD) every Saturday and all that fun stuff. However I began to get a heavy interest in science. I started to research and teach myself everything I could about science. I learned a lot. And started to question many of the things around me, why they happened, and basically applied logic and the scientific method to many things. I started to think about God. I debated with myself. And in the end I just decided that it is illogical to conclude that a god exists (besides he never gave me presents like "Santa" did...). It just didn't seem logical to me, and many of the arguements I heard for his existance at CCD seemed empty and all involved believing without any proof. So I stopped believing. However I continued to have to go to CCD because if I stopped, then it would cause a family rift. I even got confirmed. Even though they always tell you its your choice, it isn't really. Interestingly enough, my fourth grade teacher at some point was talking to my mom, and she said she didn't believe that Roman Catholicism would be a religion that I would be comfortable in, because I was too scientifically minded. Although my grandparents wouldn't understand, my mom became an atheist around the same time I did, so it actually wasn't as bad as it could be. Now I have been "confirmed" I no longer need to go to CCD, church, confession, and since for my confirmation i got WindowsXP and a new hard drive it wasn't too raw of a deal :happy:. However I still despise those years where they were blatently forcing their views into our brains. It's political. I think that's why I became a liberal...

[RRedline]

I know this is going to sound offensive to some, but faith in God, to me, means not accepting that all there is to our existence is a relatively short life on a giant ball that is caught in orbit around an even bigger ball of fusion.

How did we get here? I have no idea. I can't prove that there is no "invisible man" in the sky who created it, and nobody can prove that there is. All we have to go on is our brains, and mine tells me that God probably does not exist, certainly not in a Biblical sense as HaYwIrE has suggested. If we were created and/or placed here, I would find it more believable that it was done by a very advanced alien civilization. Perhaps it was our own species(probably genetically altered) that placed us here to study their own natural, biological and social developments? Who knows, really...

Nobody is able to prove that God exists, and nobody is able to prove that he doesn't. All that is left is faith. Either you believe it or you don't. I could go on endlessly to explain why I believe there is no God, but it doesn't really answer the question: What is faith in God? Well, it's nothing more than accepting the existence of an omnipotent being that you've never seen, heard, smelled, tasted or felt. And I'm sure the believers are going to respond that they HAVE felt God. Good for you, if you think so. If he ever decides to show himself to me, I may change my mind. Or maybe I'll just question my senses. And if he decides to punish me with an eternity of suffering after I die for not believing in him, then he is not nearly as great as people make him out to be.

[Aria]

Being a Witch, I'm not sure if I have faith as the Christians use the term, but I believe that there is a force that created this universe, and left a piece of itself in all living things, connecting us back to our Creatrix. I can't 100% claim that I've felt God, but there have been times where I have been completely alone and felt a presence I couldn't explain.

[ethics]

Originally posted by Aria
Being a Witch, I'm not sure if I have faith as the Christians use the term, but I believe that there is a force that created this universe, and left a piece of itself in all living things, connecting us back to our Creatrix. I can't 100% claim that I've felt God, but there have been times where I have been completely alone and felt a presence I couldn't explain.

Nice sum up. I feel, more or less, very close to this.

[Allene]

I was raised a Roman Catholic and went to Catholic schools and a Catholic university. When I was about 24 years old, I left the church, and for a while I didn't have any religious affiliation. However, something happened to me when I was 7 years old--an experience so powerful that it has affected my life ever since. I was dying in a hospital in Nova Scotia at the time. A day or so earlier, I'd been given the last rites of the church. No one expected me to get better. I won't go into a lot of detail here; suffice to say I had a near-death experience, and although I was only a child and had never heard of such a thing, I somehow understood what it was all about and can remember it in detail all these years later.

Whenever I was tempted to become an atheist, that experience would come back to me. I've also had one or two odd experiences since then, particularly in relation to my father's death when I was 21. As a result, I believe there is a God out there; there is something else beyond our physical world. I don't pretend to have all the answers though.

Like Stevent, my husband also went through a crises in which he had a similar experience, and today we, too, belong to a liberal Christian denomination.

Allene

[ethics]

Wow Allene, you never shared that with us before.

Thank you. :)

[yazdzik]

Religious faith is an inexplicable thing the loss of which leaves an immense hole in the psyche, yet, trying to fill that hole is like trying to fill an immense and bottomless container with nothing.

[FrankF]

Originally posted by Techie2000
I became an atheist at an earlier age than most people who become atheist. I can't remember exactly when it happened, but I think somewhere between 8-9. The same age most people stopped believing in Santa Claus, I stopped believing in a god.
What? You don't believe in Santa Claus. :)

[Frodo Lives]

Originally posted by FrankF
What? You don't believe in Santa Claus. :) THERE IS NO SANTA CLAUSE??? :cry: :cry: :cry:

[mikepd]

I have a long and complicated medical history going back from the time I was born. Things were further complicated during neurosurgery in 1994 when a procedure that was supposed to result in a hospital stay of 5-7 days wound up being 4 months, 5 days and a lifetime of rehab.

I was raised a Roman Catholic with all the traditions of a child of the mid '50s-60s.

At about 14, I questioned organized religion but still felt the need for Faith in a higher spiritual meaning.

I found a lot of common ground in Eastern and Western philosophy, taking what for me, was the best of both.

During that hospital stay in 1994, according to all the rules of medicine I should have died not once but at least twice. I should not have the mental capacity to have these pleasant discussions with all of you.

Ethics and Martin know some of my medical history but not the entire story as there are UN conventions against that sort of torture.

I tell you that for me, Faith sustains me as much as all my medicines and respiratory equipment and physical therapy.

Without Faith in a better tomorrow, I could not endure the physical pain I know that I will have. On the usual doctor question of 'On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the worst pain you can imagine, How do you feel?, my normal every day pain level is a 5-6.

There are plenty of people who have it better than I do and many, many more who have it far worse. Twenty years in the medical field taught me that.

Pain comes and goes. Faith endures.

Mike

[ethics]

Hang in there, Mike. Your personality and your approach to life keeps ME going.

[Allene]

Mikepd,

Thank you for sharing your story with us. You are an inspiration!

Allene

[mikepd]

Just someone who plays the cards dealt. The other alternatives are completely unacceptable.

My inspiration is my late mother. I inherited her feisty genes. Besides telling my doctors what to do with their advice when I was born (that I should be institutionalized for the sake of the family as I would be profoundly retarded and not live out my teen years), she had health problems of her own and always made sure she looked her best.

She would say that people would say how nice she looked when she was really feeling her worst.

She did not 'go gently into that dark night' and I'll be damned if I will. Fight and kick all the way.

An aside on my decision at 14 about organized religion. I was going to a Jesuit high school at the time and the theology instructor said if you are not happy with the Church then you should follow your beliefs. So I took the good Father on his word and never looked back.

Mike

[ditch]

Mike I believe we had a brief discussion regarding faith at the other place. You have had to bear more than most of us and your faith has helped you cope, as you say. More power to you.

[LissaKay]

I am not religious, but I am spiritual in that I believe that there is a Higher Power that is somewhat in charge of things. While a child, my family semi-regularly attended church services mostly at a Methodist church. In my teens, I became involved with a Baptist church youth group and professed by faith in Christ and was baptized at the age of 14. A few years later, I moved away from the church due to the level of hypocrisy I saw in the members. Since then, I have never been able to stomach organized religion.

Raising my own family, I attempted to go back to the church with the children, but my husband was, to say the least, disinterested. Disinterest became disapproval, and to avoid conflict, I acquiesced. I stopped going.

Then my father became "born again" in the worst possible way. It became his mission, nay ... his obsession, in life to convert all he came in contact with to Christianity. To disagree with him, or challenge his beliefs was to invite his scorn. Eventually, we agreed to disagree (he gave up on me) and we learned to live in peace. My mother soon joined him in his fundamentalist Christian faith, but she was not quite as pushy about it. She witnessed by example and the simple statement, "I will pray for you." While my father pushed me further away with his Bible thumping, my mother's quiet faith and grace pulled me closer to God. But I could never completely give myself over to their "brand" of religion.

For most of my adult life, it has been one crisis, tragedy or disaster after another. I have half jokingly stated on more than one occasion that I will probably live forever because God likes to mess with me too much. For a long time I wavered between being really mad at God for giving me this life that has sucked so damn badly, and pleading with Him to grant me a little bit of peace ... just a little, or at least the strength to make it through the latest drama.

However, I have recently realized that everything happens for a reason. I do not believe that events in the world are random or chaotic. I feel that God, or a Higher Power has a hand in directing us to what we need to do and where we need to be, with the strength, wisdom and resources we need to deal with what comes next. While I am less than thrilled with the hand that has been dealt to me, it is because of this belief that Someone else is ultimately in charge and is guiding me that I can face this life of mine, summon the strength and courage to carry on without crumpling beneath it and survive with my head held high and a smile on my face ... at least most of the time.

[Coriolis]

What an extraordinary bunch you all are. Thank you all for your candid thoughts.

Like Haywire, Frodo and RRed, and I think what Ethics, Ditch and Techie were also getting at, I also see "God" as a purely human construct. On the one hand a vehicle to rationalize the unrationalizable -- the meaning of our existence, our purpose in life on this planet -- and on the other hand a way to free us of that very burden. Rationalize it too much, and faith looses out to logic? For me I think this is true, but I'm not sure it holds in a general sense, as theologists for millennia have somehow rationalized the existence of God based upon their faith. While part of me is happy to encounter others with similar feelings about God, it’s the space unfilled which makes we wonder if we’re better off or worse off.

Martin nailed one point, that <i>"Religious faith is an inexplicable thing the loss of which leaves an immense hole in the psyche, yet, trying to fill that hole is like trying to fill an immense and bottomless container with nothing.</i>" Boy, does this drive it home. Perhaps it was reading between the lines of my post, but it is this emptiness which I’ve been trying to fill since voluntarily casting off the chains of my religion. I don’t think I can regain a faith that was never there to begin with, but nonetheless a certain emptiness is undoubtedly there.

It’s a strange thing, this emptiness. Like nature abhors a vacuum, so does the human heart.

Bruzzes, I too have considered Eastern religions. This interest came about in college from spending a lot of time hanging around the philosophy crowd. The concept of reincarnation, the spinning wheel, has a certain appeal to my sensibilities. I’m not sure why, exactly, but such a belief system being less rooted in a central omnipotent and omnivorous entity, and more focused on the inner mind of the individual as a larger entity, seems to jive with my existential leanings. However, the path to enlightenment has so far eluded me. Rowd may be correct in that <i>“seek and you may find”</i> is all that is needed, but thus far my seeking has only widened the great chasm of emptiness I sometimes feel. However, others can seek and find; Steven certainly has. There may be hope for me yet, to fill this hole with something.

I’ve been fortunate so far in my life (knocks on wood) in that I’ve never had anything really horrible happen to me. The stories conveyed by Allene and Mike, and Misu and Demi, are truly inspirational, in the sense that (and I’m not sure this is an accurate summation) faith can used to deal with some very, very tough issues. Jim’s comment that <i>"religion is what you do and faith is what you have"</i> makes we wonder: can the two exist separate from one another? Can you have faith without religion? The spirituality that Misu, Demi and Aria speak of suggests that faith and religion <i>can</i> be separate. I don’t think I’d truly considered this before. This has become my take home message! Not sure what I’ll do with it yet, but I think I’ll be chewing on this for some time to come.

[mikepd]

Coriolis, one of the most religious people I have ever known in my life was my late aunt.

My cousin's mother was well read, traveled to Europe frequently in the 30's and 40's, was raised a Roman Catholic.

At what time she stopped going to Church on a regular basis I do not know. She valued all forms of religion yet did not feel the need to go to a building one day a week to proclaim spirituality.

She did not need the trappings of an organized religion to be in touch with her spiritual self or her Creator. I do feel she believed in GOD as a higher intelligence akin to what we will one day evolve to.

'For Death is but the closing of one door and the opening of another.'

Western belief? Eastern philosophy? Science Fiction/Fantasy?

Or Nothing at all just a random convergence of organic material, energy and incredible luck?

I do not know.

Faith does not require that I ask or find the answer. Faith says 'be content.'

My syrinx could go unstable tomorrow and shortly we would not have these fine discussions. My nightmare would come true.

Yet I would be content, for I have Faith.

[joseftu]

Wow, is this a great discussion! and a tough question!

I'm Jewish. My parents are both Jewish, my maternal grandparents and paternal great-grandparents had to come to this country because they were Jewish and Jews were not welcome where they were. All of my family who didn't come to this country was slaughtered in the Holocaust because they were Jewish. I went to Hebrew School, became a Bar Mitzvah, and then taught the younger kids' Hebrew School. My first kiss, my first touch of a female breast, my first staying up all night, my first unauthorized drunkenness, all took place in the context of Jewish youth group events.

But that's all cultural. I didn't really have a religious feeling or faith. Judaism is interesting that way...it doesn't really require a spiritual investment.

Then I went to college. I didn't get involved in Jewish life at the college at all. I was interested in rejecting my childhood, and my parents, and everything connected with them. Like many people, I was depressed, lonely, heavily involved in drugs. Like most people, I toyed with Eastern religion, and atheism, and then (probably not like too many) I fell in love with a born-again Chicana, (sounds like a dirty joke? ;)).

For various reasons, including my loneliness, the friendliness of church people, missing the feeling of being involved in a community and going out to lunch with a big group...but even more my girlfriend would agree to have sex with me...I was baptized.

When the men of the church were praying over me, when I was studying the bible with them, and having them tell me that it was totally compatible to be Jew and Christian at the same time (look at Jesus, or Paul, after all), and when they dunked me, I might, for about 5 minutes, have felt something. Rituals exist because they're powerful.

But it didn't last.

Probably by that same night, I knew I wasn't Christian. I had no faith I didn't feel or hear or believe that Jesus was God.
I became (later, after I broke up with my girlfriend), an extremely aggressive and militant atheist.

Especially later, when I moved to NYC and became politically active (joining an underground Maoist organization--but that's another story--related to another female, of course, this time a half-Japanese woman, who ended up leaving me for a Puerto Rican Trombone player--it sounds even more ridiculous, doesn't it?;)), I was even more contemptuous and actively hostile toward religion.

But I got older. I also got healthier. I went through some personal tragedies that led me into psychoanalysis. I resolved some my feelings about my childhood and my parents. I took a trip to Israel, and saw secular Jews, my cousins, confident, well-armed, and non-neurotic.

I became Jewish again. I fell in love with and married a Jewish woman, had a Jewish daughter, and we're raising her in a Jewish home. We go to shul most Saturdays (will be leaving soon after I finish typing this), we celebrate the holidays, and we consider Judaism an important and beautiful part of our lives (we're not orthodox, don't keep strictly kosher, or strictly observe the Sabbath, but we're conservative, not reform).

I'm proud and happy to be Jewish. My religion is important to me, and I'm active in participating in it (and discussing it here ;) ).

But now, (finally ;)) to get to your question. I still can't really say whether I believe in God or not. I praise Him, and thank Him, formally, in Hebrew. I don't just mouth the words, I try to think them and mean them. But that's because it's important to <b>me</b> to do so, not because He needs me to.

Judaism is about how you should live, more than what you should believe. Thanking God, praising Him for this wonderful universe, remembering what He has done for my people, makes me a better person. It may sound strange, but it's not really incompatible with a kind of benign atheism, or at least agnosticism. I just don't know. I can't say there is a God, I can't say there isn't. The universe is pervaded with beauty--with power--with violent fury and peaceful joy. To me, that's God. It's a kind of sloppy pantheism, almost embarrassing to say. This may sound like sophistry, and maybe it is, but I'm comfortable with it.

I didn't really realize I was going to write so much, and I'm not sure anyone will have the patience to read through the whole thing. But you did ask....

[Allene]

Joseftu, I had no problem finding the patience to read your message. It's very evocative, very sincere. Thank you for sharing your story with us.

Allene

[mikepd]

Originally posted by joseftu
Wow, is this a great discussion! and a tough question!


Judaism is about how you should live, more than what you should believe. I didn't really realize I was going to write so much, and I'm not sure anyone will have the patience to read through the whole thing. But you did ask....

Very, very, close to how I feel on the subject.

When I met my wife, I decided to be confirmed a Lutheran as that was what she and her family practices and firmly believes.

I attend services as I am able. I also am a member of the Church Fellowship Committee as its function is a topic near and dear to me. Food and entertaining.

You see I have deluded myself (and some others) into believing I am an amateur gourmet cook. I have the books, equipment and nothing pleases me more than to get through another meal without too many dead bodies on the floor.


Spiritual fulfillment comes in many forms. For me, it comes in part, from living my life by trying to return some of all the good things people have done for me over my 50 years.

Fellowship is an excellent way to do this. I have always liked to entertain, help people (why I went into the medical field and enjoyed it) and derive great satisfaction in doing so.

So Faith can mean many things to many people. You can have Faith and not even know it for you do not recognize it.

If you believe that you can make a better place in the world for having been in it, believe that tomorrow just *might* be better than today, take the time to stop and smell the roses, leave positive impressions on a young child...

Then my friends, you have FAITH.

Mike

P.S. If I may be allowed a small indulgence and go OT for a minute. My wife and I both have Advanced Directives (Living Wills). I urge all to consider writing this important document so in the ultimate crisis, you spare your loved ones decisions that are painful to make even when not under great stress. It could be your last gift of love to them.

Thank you for your time and we now return you to this excellent thread.

[Coriolis]

Originally posted by joseftu
I didn't really realize I was going to write so much, and I'm not sure anyone will have the patience to read through the whole thing. But you did ask.... This was a fabulous post joseftu! I very much enjoyed reading about your journey. What an interesting life you seem to have led. Thank you for sharing!
Originally posted by mikepd
P.S. If I may be allowed a small indulgence and go OT for a minute. My wife and I both have Advanced Directives (Living Wills). I urge all to consider writing this important document so in the ultimate crisis, you spare your loved ones decisions that are painful to make even when not under great stress. It could be your last gift of love to them.Great advice Mike. I've been thinking about this for some time now, but like many things, just haven't found the time. Unfortunately, that's always the excuse, isn't it? And then it's too late. Damn, if there were just 28 hrs in a day... ;)

[Basilio]

Well, I would personally say there is much to be gained in Christian spirituality when taken in its proper context of understanding the parables, the large picture or scheme of things rather than taking the words simply literally at every turn......I do think every religious group has its scandals whether it is the Holy Roman Catholic Church, Anglican, Hasidic Jewish, or Islamic....
None is without problems... As far as the pedophile scandal, the majority of Catholic priests are sound people who are not scandalous.... I just thought I would mention that because there has been much talk of it, and both the Anglican and Catholic Churches in North America have had scandals relating to children.
What do I feel about faith and God? Well, God is kind of this energy field to me and we have this energy or radio wave where we can tune and receive this bountiful energy of goodness.... I think God is within us all, we all have that God-like potential......... You know that song, what if God was one of us?
What about if we were one with God, is what it should really be, for we're supposed to be one of the Creator and create goodness in our lives, that is what I relate to when I put faith in God, but I must have also faith in myself.... If I can't believe in myself as part of creation, it will be hard to believe in God.
But I do believe that religion should not be used to hide our weaknesses, camouflage them or be an opiate for us as masses....

[Coriolis]

Great post Basilio. I like your perspective, and I agree with many of your points (though I'm surprised to hear there are Anglican sex scandals -- not sure why I've not heard about them, perhaps due to the relative magnitude of the Catholic Church's problems?). You raise an interesting question though... your statement <i>"If I can't believe in myself as part of creation, it will be hard to believe in God"</i> begs an answer to whether one can fully believe in ones part of creation without believing in God as a creator. Can there be a fullfillment of personal purpose in this life without God? I think there can be, but then again, why did I start this thread in the first place... Makes me wonder.

[Violet1966]

Hmmm? I'm still thinking about this one. It's a tough one. I don't fall into the mold of most religious people.

Well to me it means that I have faith that God wants us to do the right thing and learn when we do the wrong things. Wants us to be good to each other and live a good life and do onto others and all that. I don't feel that God will punish us if we don't live up to these "standards" 100% of the time. Instead I feel that God exists to help us to see that everything we do has an effect. That our actions can either be benificial or detrimental, to others and ourselves. I also believe that God is forgiving and realizes that we are not perfect and accepts us for that, unconditionally.

I don't believe in the guilt trip thing that structured religion wants us to feel. I believe that God (this force I feel that gives me faith), wants us to do our best to live and realize that what we do, will in turn affect ourselves and others and to try and make it positive so that everyone can exist together in harmony.

It's really not a bad concept. It's a shame that structured religion has managed to mess with it and make it so sour tasting to some.

I also believe that if God had a say in what structured religion has done with his image, he'd be pretty po'd ;)