Public overwhelmingly behind Hicks [Archive] - Global Affairs Forum, Politics, Law, Science, Health

View Full Version : Public overwhelmingly behind Hicks

Elias

09-15-2006, 04:10 AM

More than 90 per cent of Australians believe Guantanomo Bay detainee David Hicks deserves a fair trial without delay, a Newspoll survey has show.
And they believe he won't get that fair trial in the US-run detention centre in Cuba, the survey revealed.
The survey was commissioned by the group GetUp, which describes itself as an independent political movement to build a progressive Australia.
The findings showed more than nine out of 10 (91 per cent) of Australians believe Hicks, who has been in detention at Guantanamo Bay for almost five years without trial, should receive a fair trial.
But less than one in four (24 per cent) believe he will receive a fair trial if tried at Guantanamo Bay.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/public-overwhelmingly-behind-hicks/2006/09/15/1157827134718.html

This gives an indication in the level of confidence the Australian public have in the military juducial system in the US.

ditch

09-15-2006, 07:20 AM

No it doesn't give an indication of the level of confidence we have in the US judicial system at all. It illustrates the attitude we have to the farcical situation in Guantanamo. You cannot legitimately throw a blanket over the situation re detainees in GB and what you refer to as the US judicial system in general. It is simplistic to do so. I agree that it is a disgrace that Hick's, in particular, because I am more familiar with his case than any others there, has been there for as long as he has with so little progress being made towards resolving the predicament. And this is one thing I will level strong crticism at Howard for. This nonsense should have been sorted years ago.

Hick's needs to be charged and tried. The fact that he has not been even charged, I think, is digraceful and an abuse of power.

Domh

09-15-2006, 09:23 AM

This gives an indication in the level of confidence the Australian public have in the military juducial system in the US.

1. Oh. I was going to say that in the US the public at large ARE overwhelmingly, well, hicks... so of course they are behind themselves.

2. I dont remember ever reading about how the average American hick is really very concerned about what the Australian public thinks about the military "juducial" system here in the USA.

ShinyTop

09-15-2006, 10:14 AM

Hick's needs to be charged and tried. The fact that he has not been even charged, I think, is digraceful and an abuse of power.

All of the prisoners at Gitmo should have been charged long ago. I agree, Ditch, something I have been saying for years.

Copzilla

09-15-2006, 01:06 PM

I think that Aussie polls should never be what drives the American judicial system or military doctrine.

Australia
America

Two different places.

Lovehound

09-15-2006, 02:34 PM

Thank you. I always wondered why they were spelled differently . . . ;)

ShinyTop

09-15-2006, 07:07 PM

I think that Aussie polls should never be what drives the American judicial system or military doctrine.

Australia
America

Two different places.

I don't believe I said or implied their polls should influence what we do. I think I was clear that the prisoners should have been charged years ago. And I have been saying that for years.

Copzilla

09-16-2006, 12:54 AM

I wasn't talking to you. I hit the new reply button at the bottom, but I was referring to the original post, which makes some big hay about what Aussies think the US should be doing. When are people going to poll me about what Aussies should be doing? And if they do, will the Aussies listen?

ditch

09-16-2006, 01:45 AM

I think the US policy towards GB detainees differs from the values that you are imposing/spreading/preaching/encouraging, in other parts of the world. Holding people without trial and/or not charging them isn't what you are preaching. Lets swap roles for the sake of discussion. Australia is holding a US citizen....etc etc. Tell me what you might imagine the US's reaction might be at both a government and personal opinion level? Will Australia listen when we are told what we should be doing? You can bet your life we'll be expected to.

Copzilla

09-16-2006, 07:39 AM

Told by who... a poll of US citizens? I don't farking think so.

ditch

09-16-2006, 08:53 AM

No, of course not.

You know as well as I do that opinion polls are never intended to be drivers of any country's policies, foreign or domestic. There was never any suggestion that the US should jump as a result of this poll. I took that as understood. The point was, I feel sure that US citizens woud feel equally strongly about one of theirs being held down here. If asked, opinions are expressed.

Lovehound

09-16-2006, 12:29 PM

The point was, I feel sure that US citizens woud feel equally strongly about one of theirs being held down here. If asked, opinions are expressed.

1. That isn't going to happen, an American being held without trial in Australia. We might as well discuss science fiction.

2. Probably in a fair poll if you asked Americans to locate Australia on the map, less than half of them could do it without guessing.

Personally, I think that all prisoners (everywhere) should have access to due process and to a reasonably speedy trial. However, the Bush administration does not put this as a priority for the Gitmo detainees.

American support for the Bush administration is by no means popular (i.e. fairly lower than 50%) but however, many if not most of us Americans are busy drinking, doping, and screwing our neighbor's spouses, and probably couldn't be bothered to think about some Aussie prisoner in Gitmo.

I don't think things should be this way, but I accept the reality of the situation. Perhaps a new administration in 2009 will handle the matter differently. Or not.

ditch

09-16-2006, 07:19 PM

1. That isn't going to happen, an American being held without trial in Australia. We might as well discuss science fiction.

2. Probably in a fair poll if you asked Americans to locate Australia on the map, less than half of them could do it without guessing.

Personally, I think that all prisoners (everywhere) should have access to due process and to a reasonably speedy trial. However, the Bush administration does not put this as a priority for the Gitmo detainees.

American support for the Bush administration is by no means popular (i.e. fairly lower than 50%) but however, many if not most of us Americans are busy drinking, doping, and screwing our neighbor's spouses, and probably couldn't be bothered to think about some Aussie prisoner in Gitmo.

I don't think things should be this way, but I accept the reality of the situation. Perhaps a new administration in 2009 will handle the matter differently. Or not.

Point taken and fair enough. However, to get back on track, the initial post here was reporting the results of an opinion poll and made comment on the US judicial system in general. There was never any suggestion that the results of opinion polls are intended to influence US policies nor is it realistic to suggest that they would. Any influence will be exerted at a government level , as we both know, not by some opinion poll.

It's a pretty safe bet to say that this David Hicks is a very low risk case of potential terrorists/militant, or whatever you want to call him. Further, the Bristish have successfully negotiated the release from GB of their citizens, two I beleive, back to gaols in Britain. Hicks should be either charged or released back to Oz authorities.

Lovehound

09-16-2006, 11:58 PM

Well my personal opinion is that our US administration is listless and lackluster about any semblance of due process for the Australian Gitmo detainee(s), or for that matter for any of them. Note that UK is the primary and almost sole supporter of US policy in Iraq. It's possible that the US is more amenable to listening to UK concerns.

All the detainees should be either charged or released (IMO). That is what the American concept of due process and rule by laws is based upon. It grieves me that the present administration is pursuing nationalistic goals instead of the higher goals that our Constitution is founded upon.

I guess like always the ends justify the means, and holding the Gitmo prisoners without recourse to law is expedient.

Coot

09-17-2006, 02:49 AM

I don't give a rat's ass about gitmo. These are turds who, for the most part, were caught on the battlefield. Give them their geneva conventions rights, to the extent that those apply to terrorists and let them rot. Does any country, with its population in its right mind, want these fuckers running around loose, or in jail poisoning the minds of inmates that will get out? AFAIC, the best course of action would be to get the American service men and women off the immediate location and explode something rather large and rather nasty where the jail now stands. Poetic justice.

Elias

09-18-2006, 12:23 AM

Coot

09-18-2006, 12:34 AM

or in this case poetic licence.......

Im curious if there are any US congressman or military heads who would support the death penalty for GITMO's prior to a hearing?
Privately? Most certainly. Publicly? Not a chance.

Stiofán

09-18-2006, 03:09 AM

You all do realize that most of the highest level detainees are not at Gitmo, and never have been, don't you? Have any of you heard of Diego Garcia? If you have you should know its sovereign British territory, not American soil. Since the first shipment of detainees were made to Gitmo some 4+ years ago, just where have most of the detainees since then been going? Oh, you haven't heard of any new detainee shipments going to Gitmo, huh? Not for more than a few years. Where could they be going? No Taliban or al Quada fighters have been captured in Afghanistan lately? Well, let's forget about that for now.

Back to British Diego Garcia. Let's see, how many commonwealth trials have been held there recently?

Come on guys. You know how the game is played. Gitmo is nothing more than a lightning rod to draw attention from other things our governments are doing to protect us idiots. It's a show, a bone thrown out to distract the curious, to keep everyone occupied. There are Taliban, al Quada and foreign ex-pat Muslim fighters in prisons all over the world right now. The fact you don't hear about these prisoners only guarantees that Gitmo is a Club Med compared to the others. These are places where when the intelligence wonks are done with them, they will simply disappear, no trial and no cares. I hear the Egyptian military prisons are especially popular.

Yes, let's all expend a ton of energy over Hicks. Post another poll. Feel better?

Elias

09-18-2006, 03:51 AM

Yes, let's all expend a ton of energy over Hicks. Post another poll. Feel better

Well.....no actually..

Hicks has been charged with conspiracy, attempted murder and aiding the enemy. But the charges are significant for what they do not spell out. Though they are extremely serious, there is no allegation that Hicks killed or specifically harmed anyone.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/13/1087065029888.html?from=storylhs

His captors assert instead that he trained in al-Qaeda camps, guarded a Taliban tank at Kandahar airport and travelled to Konduz in northern Afghanistan to join Taliban engaged in combat against US-led forces. They say he intended to kill coalition combatants in Afghanistan between September and December 2001. They assert he aided al-Qaeda and the Taliban in the context of armed conflict. In the absence of specifics it is impossible to make any further assessment.
<SCRIPT language=Javascript1.1></SCRIPT><NOSCRIPT>http://campaigns.f2.com.au/image.ng/cat=news&ctype=story&Params.richmedia=yes&subcat=opinion&site=age&adspace=300x250 (http://campaigns.f2.com.au/click.ng/cat=news&ctype=story&Params.richmedia=yes&subcat=opinion&site=age&adspace=300x250)</NOSCRIPT>
There are, however, some puzzling aspects, such as the claim that Hicks translated al-Qaeda training material into English from Arabic, a language of which he is believed to have had only a limited command.

Coot

09-18-2006, 04:07 AM

His captors assert instead that he trained in al-Qaeda camps, guarded a Taliban tank at Kandahar airport and travelled to Konduz in northern Afghanistan to join Taliban engaged in combat against US-led forces. They say he intended to kill coalition combatants in Afghanistan between September and December 2001. They assert he aided al-Qaeda and the Taliban in the context of armed conflict. In the absence of specifics it is impossible to make any further assessment.

There are, however, some puzzling aspects, such as the claim that Hicks translated al-Qaeda training material into English from Arabic, a language of which he is believed to have had only a limited command.

Puzzling? Assert? The piece of shit was in Afghanistan, consorting with the Taliban. What's that you say? He was there only to expand his knowledge of sheep? It's beyond me as to why anyone with two brain cells to rub together gives two shits what happens to this turd.

Actually, instead of killing him, I have a better idea. I move we send him to Elias' house for the remainder of his life.

ditch

09-18-2006, 06:52 AM

David hicks was, maybe still is, a young naive idiot. IMO he's just simply not in the same category as the typical detainee at GB. As long as my arsehole points to the ground I'll maintain that this kid was caught way out of his depth, in a league he wasn't prepared for or capable of living up to. Yes I know, he was caught in Afgani with a gun. He was a bloody fool. Is he a danger to the west as a terrorist in the same way as the rest of those fuckdusts he's locked up with are? No way. But he's getting what he deserves or probably has already got what he deserved. He doesn't deserve to go unpunished.

How long is he expected to be locked up there? The longer he stays under the current circumstances of the kangaroo court BS that's swirling around all this, the more of a bloody disgrace the situation becomes not only for the fact that our PM turns his back, but for the lack of any real attempt to try him. He's been allocated a lawyer, a Major in the US army if I recall correctly. What the heck does that imply, when there seems to be no interest in a trial?

The Hick's situation sucks from every angle. Just ponder for a moment if you will, on the principle of being held without trial for an indefinite period at the whim of your captors. It's not a principle that the west is keen on forcing on other nations of the world, nor should it be.

Send him home to Elias? Not such a bad idea. I reckon he and Elias would get on pretty well. Got some room over there Elias?

Lovehound

09-18-2006, 11:46 AM

I don't give a rat's ass about gitmo.
I don't give a rat's ass about Gitmo either, nor the pieces of shit who are imprisoned there. What I give a rat's ass about is that America is bragging to the world how great we are, how we are the land of freedom, the land ruled by laws and a Constitution, and then we turn around and do things the way every other country does them--by having a special class of people that the rules don't apply to. The world doesn't see our freedom, they see our Gitmo. We've lost the moral high ground.

Come on guys. You know how the game is played. Gitmo is nothing more than a lightning rod to draw attention from other things our governments are doing to protect us idiots. It's a show, a bone thrown out to distract the curious, to keep everyone occupied.
Good post Stiofan! I couldn't agree with you more. Gitmo is the magician's left hand, misdirecting you while he stuffs cards up his sleeve with the other hand.

Stiofán

09-18-2006, 03:26 PM

I don't give a rat's ass about Gitmo either, nor the pieces of shit who are imprisoned there. What I give a rat's ass about is that America is bragging to the world how great we are, how we are the land of freedom, the land ruled by laws and a Constitution, and then we turn around and do things the way every other country does them--by having a special class of people that the rules don't apply to. The world doesn't see our freedom, they see our Gitmo. We've lost the moral high ground.

Greg, I think what America is bragging to the world about is that if you fuck with us, life as you know it is over, and it's about time. Whether that means our SOFs take you out in the dead of night in some shithole cave in Tora Bora, or you're lucky enough to be alive at our choosing so you can provide intel in some detention center and then later you may be allowed to go free and back your "kill the infidel planning" or maybe not.

I just find it hard to drum up any sympathy for any of these guys. Taliban controlled Afghanistan was not some scout camp where bored western boys could go and learn woodcraft. You had to want to be there, you had to fully and honestly buy into their mindset of hate of the west and you had to actively participate in the Taliban/al Quada resistance to get your butt captured by coalition forces.

Meanwhile on the world outrage stage, Darfur sees how many tens of thousands of humans can get slaughtered while Kofi sits on his ass dining with Chavez and Castro the lessor and folks like Elias post about the tragedy of David Hicks. The beat of life as usual goes on.

ShinyTop

09-18-2006, 03:33 PM

If most of the detainees fit your description I too would have little sympathy. But there are many who say the facts are different including those in our own armed forces.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060917/ap_on_re_mi_ea/in_american_hands

Lovehound

09-18-2006, 06:49 PM

I agree Steve. America is saying, "We are the land of the brave and the home of the free. We believe in inalienable human rights and the rule of law, and if you fuck with us we'll kill your asses!"

I'm all in favor of bombing them into oblivion, but we shouldn't spend so much time sanctimoniously preaching to them. Like Teddy Roosevelt said, "Speak softly and carry a big stick." We should spend less time talking and more time killing. It's the only thing they understand.

I'm not in favor of war, but if we're going to kill, let's just do it and quit talking about it.

Stiofán

09-18-2006, 10:34 PM

And right on que we have this story...

Canadian police wrongly identified an Ottawa software engineer as an Islamic extremist, prompting U.S. agents to deport him to Syria, where he was tortured, an official inquiry concluded on Monday.

Maher Arar, who holds Canadian and Syrian nationality, was arrested in New York in September 2002 and accused of being an al-Qaeda member. In fact, said the judge who led the probe, all the signs point to the fact Arar was innocent.

Arar, 36, says he was repeatedly tortured in the year he spent in Damascus jails, and the inquiry agreed that he had been tortured. He was freed in 2003.

I wonder if Kofi has expressed any outrage over this guy's torture at the hands of the Syrians? Nah.....

There's a better than even chance that the only place detainees are not being tortured is at Gitmo.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N18316511.htm

ethics

09-18-2006, 10:42 PM

Wowza!

First the school rampage in Montreal and now this.

Gotta give Alertnet some credit here.

Elias

09-19-2006, 12:38 AM

The Hick's situation sucks from every angle. Just ponder for a moment if you will, on the principle of being held without trial for an indefinite period at the whim of your captors. It's not a principle that the west is keen on forcing on other nations of the world, nor should it be.

A point that shouldnt be lost on those waging the war on terror

Send him home to Elias? Not such a bad idea. I reckon he and Elias would get on pretty well. Got some room over there Elias?
[/QUOTE]

Errr.....I believe Hicks has a family here in Australia, his father has been on TV asking Mr Howard to bring him home.

he was caught in Afgani with a gun. He was a bloody fool. Is he a danger to the west as a terrorist in the same way as the rest of those fuckdusts he's locked up with are? No way. But he's getting what he deserves or probably has already got what he deserved. He doesn't deserve to go unpunished.

Im curious why the US released Australian Mamdough Habib
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4214747.stm

He was accused of exactly the same things as David Hicks and worse

During nearly three years of detention there, he was accused by the US - though never charged - of training militants and of having prior knowledge of the 11 September 2001 attacks

Surely Habib is more of a danger to Australia than young David

Salvage cars | Loans | Bollywood | Mobile Phones | Credit Counseling