PM Howard on Muslims

[ditch]

Oz's PM John Howard has criticised those Muslims in this country who refuse to learn to speak English, treat women as equals and to assimilate into the local culture.

Well surprise, surprise, he has been criticised for his anti-Muslim comments by, you guessed it, by various oppposition politicians and the head of the government's Muslim advisory committee.

The head of the government's new Muslim advisory committee, Dr Ameer Ali, warned the prime minister against inflaming tensions that could lead to more racial strife.

"We have already witnessed one incident in Sydney recently, in Cronulla. I don't want these scenes to be repeated because when you antagonise the younger generation, younger group, they are bound to react," Dr Ali told Macquarie Radio.

The truth always stings the most. Call a spade a spade and wait for the flack to hit.

Mr Howard denied he was singling out Muslims for criticism.

"And I have said, generally, all migrants ... they have to integrate, and that means speaking English as quickly as possible, it means embracing Australian values and it also means making sure that no matter what the culture of the country from which they come might have been, Australia requires women to be treated fairly and equally and in the same fashion as men," he said.

The SMH story. (http://www.smh.com.au/news/NATIONAL/Muslims-warn-of-Cronullastyle-riots/2006/09/01/1156817080720.html)

Howard is right in what he says and right to have publicly made these comments. These comments are not racist. These things needed to be said. Get it out in the open for discussion. Don't let it sit and fester.

[Sarge]

The head of the government's new Muslim advisory committee, Dr Ameer Ali, warned the prime minister against inflaming tensions that could lead to more racial strife.
Typical response for an Islamist apologist! When has an Australian or American hijacked an airplane and crashed it into a building? Taken others hostage and beheaded them in front of a camera? Blown-up trains and buses packed with innocent people?

Dr. Ameer Ali is, in effect, furthering the goals of the terrorists by trying to force the PM to be "nice" to the very culture that refuses to weed the violent radicals out of it's social and religious circle. The doctor obviously doesn't recognize who inflamed who first!

[ditch]

Dr. Ameer Ali is, in effect, furthering the goals of the terrorists by trying to force the PM to be "nice" to the very culture that refuses to weed the violent radicals out of it's social and religious circle. The doctor obviously doesn't recognize who inflamed who first!

Admission of responsibility is too big a pill to swallow it seems.

[ravital]

Someone ought to explain to the good Dr. Ali that threats in a democracy don't work, and threats against government officials may be punishable by law. There's very little probability that someone born and raised in a democracy, would resort to such language, so there's a very good chance that the good Dr. Ali is an immigrant to Oz. He can always go back to the Middle Eastern shithole he crawled out of, where no one will give him grief for treating women like beasts, if he doesn't like democracy.

[Swamp Fox]

Why is he living in Australia anyway?

[Sarge]

Someone ought to explain to the good Dr. Ali that threats in a democracy don't work, and threats against government officials may be punishable by law.

He's commiting a "no justice no peace" type of extortion.

[ditch]

It gets up my nose that Ali has raised the prospect of more race riots in Sydney, referring to those in Cronulla, a southern Sydney suburb. They were the worst of we have ever had. In fact they are unique. His simple mention of them, given his role, is enough to get the thoughts of revenge and hate brewing again in some. As someone with a position of responsibilty his comments are something he ought to be admonished for. And he ought to withdraw them.

Stanley, why is he living here?..............I don't know. I would like him to fuck off back home if the above comments are typical of his attitude and lack of diplomatic skills.

[Sierra Mike]

Ditch, this is very OT, but is Howard likely to win the next election? Is there any inkling as to who will run against him, and if this person will be more of an active apologist for this kind of stuff?

SM (trying to determine if Oz is the place to relocate to when the US finally boils over and collapses beneath the heavy weight of illegal aliens, terrorist apologists, and general LLL moon-battery)

[ravital]

SM (trying to determine if Oz is the place to relocate to when the US finally boils over and collapses beneath the heavy weight of illegal aliens, terrorist apologists, and general LLL moon-battery)

Why you evil proliferator of useless labels you!

[Sierra Mike]

Hey, just trying to make the world a better place. :angel:

SM

[Coot]

SM (trying to determine if Oz is the place to relocate to when the US finally boils over and collapses beneath the heavy weight of illegal aliens, terrorist apologists, and general LLL moon-battery)

What's that? You're going to bug out? Just when it's time to switch to guns!

[Sierra Mike]

Only after I run out of ammo, and I can't get reloads. :)

SM

[ditch]

Ditch, this is very OT, but is Howard likely to win the next election? Is there any inkling as to who will run against him, and if this person will be more of an active apologist for this kind of stuff?

SM (trying to determine if Oz is the place to relocate to when the US finally boils over and collapses beneath the heavy weight of illegal aliens, terrorist apologists, and general LLL moon-battery)

Howard is the favouite to win the next election at this stage, which is on next year. His deputy, Peter Costello, he is busting for his turn at leader and is the annointed one, has been frustrated by Howard's refusal to retire.

The opposition Labor party is headed by Kim Beasley. He doesn't have the popularity as an individual that Howard does however. Howard is taking a populist linew with the Muslims, and the right one. I don't think the Labor Party can afford to not adopt a similar line although there are a lot more liberal minded, your type of liberal, members within Labor ranks, so the possibilty of a softer line with Muslims is there.

Come on down Steve, regardless. We can sort that gun thing out for you.;)

[ditch]

To add to this, the opposition's official line, as I heard on the radio this morning, is to criticise the govt for not providing adequate English teaching facilities for migrants. It has not disagreed with Howard's comments regarding lack of assimilation and unwillingness to learn English on the part of some Muslims.

Good.

[Elias]

Howard is right in what he says and right to have publicly made these comments. These comments are not racist. These things needed to be said. Get it out in the open for discussion. Don't let it sit and fester.


I remember Howard saying the same thing when ex MP Pauline Hanson made her famous speech about Asian migrants and grabbed 10% of the Australian electorate. The problem there was that Howard ran for cover when the "Hansonism" took a nose dive in the oponion polls.

Ditch, Politicians (and Howard is the perfect example) are populist and they follow oponion polls and say whatever they think will win them favour with their voters.

The Islamic council and muslim leaders have tried in vain since Sept 11 2001 to convince both Howard & Costello their community abhors terrorism and want to assimilate
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2006/09/03/1157222007392.html?from=top5


Yasser Soliman, president of the Islamic Family and Childcare Agency in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Victoria</st1:place></st1:State>, said the Government's Muslim Community Reference Group had "pledged loyalty to this country and condemned extremism and terrorism". The Muslim leadership had done this repeatedly

"Obviously Mr Costello is not in touch with the people he's talking about — he's never bothered to talk with them," he said.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Waleed Aly, board member of the Islamic Council of Victoria, said Muslim community leaders had been "speaking out unequivocally against terrorism pretty loudly and continuously for five years. If the Treasurer hasn't heard that yet, I'm not sure what it will take."<o:p></o:p>
The chairman of the Muslim Community Reference Group, Ameer Ali, said Mr Costello's remarks were "provocative, divisive and mischievous".<o:p></o:p>
Malcolm Thomas, president of the Islamic Council of Victoria, said Muslim leaders did condemn terrorism all the time. The Muslim leadership would like Mr Costello to meet with them. "He's been quite critical of the Muslim community but noticeable by his absence in any engagement," Mr Thomas said.<o:p></o:p>
This is not the first time Muslim leaders have clashed with Mr Costello. They were angered by remarks he made earlier this year about Sharia law and other matters.<o:p></o:p>
The latest Government pressure on Muslim leaders to step up their efforts against radicals comes after Prime Minister John Howard last week drew a sharp reaction from some Muslim leaders when he said a small section of the Islamic population in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region> "is very resistant to integration".<o:p></o:p>

[ravital]

The Islamic council and muslim leaders have tried in vain since Sept 11 2001 to convince both Howard & Costello their community abhors terrorism and want to assimilate
So much so that they wave riots as a threat when they hear something they don't like?

[ditch]

The Islamic council and muslim leaders have tried in vain since Sept 11 2001 to convince both Howard & Costello their community abhors terrorism and want to assimilate

Elias, they don't speak loud enough for me. Not nearly loud enough. I'll say it again...a small section of muslims jhere make no attempt to assimilate. None whatsoever.

Pauline Hanson was referring to anyone and everyone who hasn't got fair hair and blus eyes! And she wasn't dealing with, nor would she know how to deal with, those Muslims who have been caught before blowing a few of us to blazes. Your comparison is an odious one and amounts to no more than a cheap shot.

[ditch]

I'm wondering what political affiliation you lean to Elias? The two major parties here toe the same line re Muslim integration it seems. I suppose that leaves you with the Greens or the Democrats? Anyone else worth mentioning?

[Sierra Mike]

Never mind--I forgot knotheads like Elias live there.

SM

[Elias]

Elias, they don't speak loud enough for me. Not nearly loud enough. I'll say it again...a small section of muslims jhere make no attempt to assimilate. None whatsoever.

The reason the Islamic council dont get heard is the media dont give them much opportunity to air their views unless they present the face of the "wannabe terrorist", doesnt do well for ratings!

I agree with you there are a small section of the muslim community that will never assimilate. However, I mix with a wide cross section of muslims here in Melbourne including Palestinians, Lebanese, Malays, Indonesians, Pakistanis, Somali, Sudanese, Turks, Syrians and even a few Libyans. Not one person I speak to has the slightest interest in politics or is anti-Australian. My Libyan friend Lajili lost a cousin in the US bombing of Tripoli but bears no grudge against Americans. I dont know about muslims in the middle east, but judging from the community here in Melbourne, the Australian muslims are human biengs wanting to make a life.

As far as assimilation is concerned I can introduce you to lots of them who have married aussie girls (or guys), watch football, go to the beach etc etc, They have strong family values, good habits and are an example to the rest of the Australian community. This is in contradiction to the view they (as a group) dont assimilate and are a danger to the Australian way of life.


Pauline Hanson was referring to anyone and everyone who hasn't got fair hair and blus eyes! And she wasn't dealing with, nor would she know how to deal with, those Muslims who have been caught before blowing a few of us to blazes. Your comparison is an odious one and amounts to no more than a cheap shot


I was referring to Johnnie Howard, in 1996 he said exactly the same thing in response to Pauline Hansons maiden speech in parliament (targeting Asians and Non-white migrants) claiming that Hanson was exercising her freedom of speech and it was good to get it out in the open and not fester.


I'm wondering what political affiliation you lean to Elias? The two major parties here toe the same line re Muslim integration it seems. I suppose that leaves you with the Greens or the Democrats? Anyone else worth mentioning?


Both parties (ALP and Liberals) are essentially the same. The Greens are a fluffy lobby group. The Democrats used to hold the balance of power but not anymore. Im a great admirer of Democrat Senator Don Chipp and used to follow the Democrats until that traitor Meg Lees signed a pact with Howard to pass the GST.

Never mind--I forgot knotheads like Elias live there.

At least I dont call people names :biggrin:

[Sierra Mike]

At least I dont call people names :biggrin:

Everyone's got to have something they excel at--congratulations, you've found yours.

SM

[ditch]

The reason the Islamic council dont get heard is the media dont give them much opportunity to air their views unless they present the face of the "wannabe terrorist", doesnt do well for ratings!
Then they need a good PR manager. Any PR manager. Shit they can get heard if they want to. I don't buy the "media won't listen" line.

I have friends from foreign lands too. These are not the minority Howard is referring to. You know that. And if you agree, as you said, that there is a minority who don't assimilate, then why say Howard is being a typical politican by referring to them? The truth is, he's simply stating facts and everyone knows it.

[ethics]

Ah! First they were afraid, they were petrified. They never thought they'd live in peace if they were vocalized.

And now, the excuse du jour is that the MEDIA is at fault?

Nice try.

[ravital]

Ah! First they were afraid, they were petrified. They never thought they'd live in peace if they were vocalized.


LOL!

"They've go all their lives to live,
They've got all their love to give..."

Great way to start the day, thanks! :lol:

[ethics]

Hey, glad someone picked up on it. ;)

[Elias]

as you said, that there is a minority who don't assimilate, then why say Howard is being a typical politican by referring to them? The truth is, he's simply stating facts and everyone knows it.

What the muslim community here in Melbourne is asking is........

1. Where does Howard get his intelligence that there is widespread anti-Australian feeling among Aussie muslims - Cronulla riots? I thought more drunken Aussies did a lot more rioting on Cronulla beach than any muslims

2. Why does he think muslim converts are indocrinated with terrorist literature? so far we have two examples (Jack Thomas & David Hicks) however what about the thousands of other converts? do they have to watch who they talk to or what they read?

3. Why does he state that Australian muslim women are treated badly what statistics does he have?

4. Finally why does he think muslims are not assimilating? this is truly bizarre given that other community groups like Vietnamese, Greeks and Italians are able to form ghettos in Melbourne.

I think he is inferring from public oponion rather than facts

<!-- / message -->

[Steve]

I think Mr. Howard made it pretty clear that he was referring to a very small minority and not the majority, despite your attempt to take his remark out of context.

[ditch]

What the muslim community here in Melbourne is asking is........

1. Where does Howard get his intelligence that there is widespread anti-Australian feeling among Aussie muslims - Cronulla riots? I thought more drunken Aussies did a lot more rioting on Cronulla beach than any muslims

2. Why does he think muslim converts are indocrinated with terrorist literature? so far we have two examples (Jack Thomas & David Hicks) however what about the thousands of other converts? do they have to watch who they talk to or what they read?

3. Why does he state that Australian muslim women are treated badly what statistics does he have?

4. Finally why does he think muslims are not assimilating? this is truly bizarre given that other community groups like Vietnamese, Greeks and Italians are able to form ghettos in Melbourne.

I think he is inferring from public oponion rather than facts

<!-- / message -->

Elias, read this. It's a quote from the Sydney Herald linked in the the opening post in this thread.

"There's a small section of the Islamic population which is unwilling to integrate and I have said, generally, all migrants ... they have to integrate."
Mr Howard denied he was singling out Muslims for criticism.
"And I have said, generally, all migrants ... they have to integrate, and that means speaking English as quickly as possible, it means embracing Australian values and it also means making sure that no matter what the culture of the country from which they come might have been, Australia requires women to be treated fairly and equally and in the same fashion as men," he said.

..."generally, all migrants...they have to integrate". I picked that bit just in case you missed it, a second time.

There was considerable fault from both sides in Cronulla. Did you do a head count to determine that there were more drunk Aussies than Muslims? To imply one side was far worse than the other is showing ignorance of what happened there.

Women should be treated "equally", he said. He hasn't said they are treated badly. That is your choice of word, not his.

There is nothing in his quote, nor have I heard or read that he has said elsewhere that all Muslim converts are indoctinated with terrorist literature. Certainly some have but Howard has not generalised.

Read his quotes, don't make anything up. Then maybe you will start to get things right.

[jfcjrus]

Elias, read this. It's a quote from the Sydney Herald linked in the the opening post in this thread.


..."generally, all migrants...they have to integrate". I picked that bit just in case you missed it, a second time.

There was considerable fault from both sides in Cronulla. Did you do a head count to determine that there were more drunk Aussies than Muslims? To imply one side was far worse than the other is showing ignorance of what happened there.

Women should be treated "equally", he said. He hasn't said they are treated badly. That is your choice of word, not his.

There is nothing in his quote, nor have I heard or read that he has said elsewhere that all Muslim converts are indoctinated with terrorist literature. Certainly some have but Howard has not generalised.

Read his quotes, don't make anything up. Then maybe you will start to get things right.
My goodness Ditch, I hate to say this but I do believe you've gone over the edge.

Pal, you've simply got to recognize that no amount of common sense, nor logic, nor fairness, nor diplomacy is going to get you very far in the scene of politics that exists today.
Facts don't seem to matter, it's all about sound bytes that usually take statements out of context.
Hell, these political people and their advocates hire professional agencys to do just that!

It does warm my heart that you can see through all the marketting and bullshit, but you've got to lighten up.
Else, I fear you're going to blow a cork in trying to deal with this nonsense, that to any reasonable person makes no sense.
I admire your thinking, but I fear for your health. ;)

To me, your PM simply stepped outside the constraints of <i>Political Correctness</i> and stated what was rather obvious to any reasonably observent person.
And now he's taking heat for his directness, from the appologists whom refuse to even recognize that there's an issue at all, which blinds them from even beginning to offer input to a solution.

We have the same phenomenon in the USA. ;)

Regards,

[ditch]

It's pleasing to see a politician saying it like it is and not being overly concerned about PC, yes. Howard was in fact, it could be argued, being the opposite of what Elias and others were accusing him of......being a typical politican.