Religious Attack

[ditch]

The property belonging to a Sydney Rabbi, Rabbi Wernik, was vandalised while a similar attack was made on a Sydney Mosque recently. Not surprised that there has been at least one attack of this type here given the make up of the local population. As the minister for Police said to those responsible, don't bring your own "mini wars" here. No indeed. Buggar off if you do.

The villains attacking the synagogue were seen during the act and described as "middle eastern men". Surprise, surprise.

The SMH story. (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/leaders-condemn-religious-attacks/2006/07/31/1154198076270.html)

Video. (http://media.smh.com.au/?rid=20779&sy=smh&source=smh.com.au%2Fnews%2Fnational%2Fleaders-condemn-religious-attacks%2F2006%2F07%2F31%2F1154198076270.html&t=62MD0I&player=wm6&rate=1980&flash=0&ie=0)

[ethics]

What?!?! Muslims!?!?! That can't be!!!

[Frodo Lives]

It's a religion of peace, dammit. :rolleyes:

[ethics]

Btw, Seattle Press just came out with an article stating that these guys were baptized.

[ShinyTop]

So which is more likely to have gotten his dander up against the Jews, the Muslim beginnings or his born again Christian teachings. I will leave it up to you.

[ethics]

I'd say his Muslim beginnings. Adolescents and teens are most impressionable.

[joseftu]

Interesting how the attack on the mosque is being completely ignored in this thread, isn't it?

[Coot]

Interesting how the attack on the mosque is being completely ignored in this thread, isn't it?
What mosque?

[ethics]

Joe finds balance:


On Saturday a brick was thrown at a mosque in Eden Street, Arncliffe, smashing a window.


In another attack, police say up to 10 people, whom they described as "Middle Eastern men", threw concrete blocks at a residence attached to a synagogue in Parramatta on Sunday night, smashing the windows of two parked cars.

[joseftu]

Yes, exactly, Coot.

It's right there in the OP, and in the linked article. But somehow, in this thread, that attack (very similar in nature, and it occurred first, before the synagogue attack) falls right into "what mosque?"

[ethics]

Yes, exactly, Coot.

It's right there in the OP, and in the linked article. But somehow, in this thread, that attack (very similar in nature, and it occurred first, before the synagogue attack) falls right into "what mosque?"

Very similar my ass.

[joseftu]

Joe finds balance:
Ethics, are you saying that there was not balance here?

Two car windows vs. one mosque window. Nobody hurt in either instance, both in the middle of the night.

What's the difference in the two attacks? Why focus on the synagogue attack and ignore completely the mosque?

I know why.

And I don't like to see it.

[ethics]

Come on, you can read above. Look at the target, not the damage done.

[joseftu]

Come on, ethics. Look at the facts. We don't really know who was aiming at what...how do you throw a block at a house and hit a car?

You're making a ton of assumptions here.

This is vandalism, and it's wrong, and it deserves to be condemned and the perpetrators punished. But the two cases are as close to equal as it's possible to get.

The only difference between them is that one is directed at a Jewish structure, and one at a Moslem structure.

[ethics]

Come on, ethics. Look at the facts. We don't really know who was aiming at what...how do you throw a block at a house and hit a car?

You're making a ton of assumptions here.
No, I read more than one source.

How is it possible, this is how:

Projectiles were hurled at the roof of the Parramatta synagogue, in Sydney’s west, on Sunday night and blocks of concrete were thrown at two cars, smashing windows.
Here's another one for ya:

Rabbi Yosef Wernick, 32, and his young family were inside a house adjoining the synagogue when it was targeted.
Do you understand the difference? (http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/bm/national/351405.html)

No? Here's more:


Earlier this month, thugs vandalised a synagogue in Coogee and desecrated its torah scrolls, while on Saturday night a window was smashed at a mosque in Arncliffe.


“There’s been an increase in expressions of anti-Semitism in the form of anti-Semitic graffiti, emails and abusive phone calls, and also the incident at the Parramatta Synagogue,” Mr Alhadeff said.


That's not to mention that a Temple was firebombed three years ago. Again, where's your sense of balance? You don't balance it and discard this with a smashed window in a Mosque, ok? You can't just say, "well, everyone is doing it, so it's bad, stop."

Thankfull, there's some common sense there.


"This is a very bad action. I condemn any terrorism attack. Australia is the land of peace," he said at Sydney's Lakemba mosque.


Although an Australian dying while fighting for Israel, the Middle East conflict should not be imported to Australia, he said.


"We will not allow any member of our community to go and fight for Hezbollah in Lebanon," Sheik Hilali said.


"We refused to import these problems into Australia."



Apparently, even their own see the disparity in this balance.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,19967760-421,00.html

[joseftu]

Ethics, you're very quick to blame Islam (not the criminals, but their religion), when the evidence (in one of the cases, there's a claim of "middle-eastern-looking men" running away) does not support that, and yet you do not blame any other religion (or in this case, even give one iota of condemnation for the crime) for a completely similar crime (throwing bricks at a building--it's the same crime, exactly--because anyone committing this crime is potentially hurting humans--unless the building is abandoned).

Isn't it wrong to throw bricks at a mosque? I hope you agree that it is. It's also wrong to throw bricks at a synagogue, and I know we agree about that. When people demonize Jews and Judaism (which Islam does not do, although many Moslems do--as is exactly true for Christianity, too), they help to promote this kind of violence and crime (which is vandalism in this case--we both agree that "hate crimes" should not apply). I think we agree about that.

But where we don't agree, and the point that you seem to be missing, is that when you demonize Islam and Moslems, you also promote this kind of violence and crime. And when you deplore crimes against Jewish buildings, but ignore or dismiss the same crime against a Moslem building, that's exactly what you're doing.

[ethics]

but ignore or dismiss the same crime against a Moslem building, that's exactly what you're doing.

Man, I give up. Believe what you will.

[ravital]

Why focus on the synagogue attack and ignore completely the mosque?

Simple: Because it is widely known that Jews are the scum of the earth who dance in the streets when Moslems are killed, while Moslems are pious, peace-loving angels who would never harm a fly. It is out of respect for and love of Moslems, that they need to be held to a higher standard. (http://www.globalaffairs.org/forum/showpost.php?p=420049&postcount=71)

Works for me.

[Stiofán]

I've asked before, by why do liberals always defend the Islamic Theocratic Fascists?

Yes, it's rhetorical.

[Sierra Mike]

I've asked before, by why do liberals always defend the Islamic Theocratic Fascists?

Yes, it's rhetorical.
Damn, and I had an answer all ready and everything!

SM

[Elias]

The villains attacking the synagogue were seen during the act and described as "middle eastern men". Surprise, surprise.


Not that common really Ditch. In the past jewish synagogues around the world have all been targets of right wing extremists like these documented by the Israeli government http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Anti-Semitism+and+the+Holocaust/Antisemitism+Monitoring+Forum/Anti-Semitic+Activities+-+September+1999.htm

or vandals like this
http://www.ajn.com.au/news/news.asp?pgID=1064

Quote: "But Leo Baeck’s Rabbi Jonathan Keren Black said there was nothing to suggest the attack, which shul officials said was the first of its kind at the temple, was motivated by antisemitism".

In the current atmosphere of "muslim terrorists hiding under our beds" many neo-facists will be dancing in the streets when they hear our deputy prime minister making comments like these
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/costello-issues-population-warning/2006/07/24/1153593271730.html

I think this is clearly a case of misrepresentation of muslims in Australia who were largely trying to mind their own business until 9-11 made them a focus of paranoia

[ditch]

Not that common really Ditch. In the past jewish synagogues around the world have all been targets of right wing extremists like these documented by the Israeli government

I should have made it clear for you that my "surprise" was of the sarcastic variety.

So why do you doubt the eye witnesses? Are middle eastern men any less likely to have been the vandals responsible than your apparent favourites for the title, right wing extremists. Given the current circumstances and the eye witness report, I see no reason, in the absence of alternative evidence, to doubt what they say.

I think this is clearly a case of misrepresentation of muslims in Australia who were largely trying to mind their own business until 9-11 made them a focus of paranoia

Why do you think this? I'd suggest that it's because you'd like it to be so.
There is nothing to support what you say. It is wishful thinking. You'd like all muslims in Oz to be a peaceful, fun loving lot, totally without links to any terrorist group, beyond reproach and unfairly accused whenever anyone of middle eastern appearance is accused of being or behaving in a way that is anything less than pure.

The facts are different Elias. The great majority of Muslims here are peaceful, but do not hide your head in the sand and think that we are lucky in not having any of those nasty troublemakers they breed in those middle eastern trouble spots somewhere to the north of here.

[ethics]

It's Elias. I am surprised everyone doesn't have him on ignore and keeps quoting him so I can still see his pathetic justifications.

[Arc]

It's Elias. I am surprised everyone doesn't have him on ignore and keeps quoting him so I can still see his pathetic justifications.

You have just publicly exposed the unavoidable weakness of the ignore feature. It is especially galling to put someone on ignore and not only see them quoted but to see in the posted quote them saying something negative or incorrect about your posts! That is worse than not having them on ignore at all! :)

[ethics]

You have just publicly exposed the unavoidable weakness of the ignore feature. It is especially galling to put someone on ignore and not only see them quoted but to see in the posted quote them saying something negative or incorrect about your posts! That is worse than not having them on ignore at all! :) I know, well aware of it, and have been trying to work on something. Perhaps soon I shall be successful.

Btw, no forum/blog feature has figured this out yet.

[Elias]

You have just publicly exposed the unavoidable weakness of the ignore feature. It is especially galling to put someone on ignore and not only see them quoted but to see in the posted quote them saying something negative or incorrect about your posts! That is worse than not having them on ignore at all! :)

:clap: bravo

[Elias]

I know, well aware of it, and have been trying to work on something. Perhaps soon I shall be successful.

Btw, no forum/blog feature has figured this out yet.

A non-technical solution is not responding to my posts :)

[Elias]

So why do you doubt the eye witnesses? Are middle eastern men any less likely to have been the vandals responsible than your apparent favourites for the title, right wing extremists. Given the current circumstances and the eye witness report, I see no reason, in the absence of alternative evidence, to doubt what they say.


Im not suggesting the culprits were not of "middle eastern appearance" however I wouldnt be so hasty in pointing a finger till there's more evidence. Innocent until proven guilty Ditch!


You'd like all muslims in Oz to be a peaceful, fun loving lot, totally without links to any terrorist group, beyond reproach and unfairly accused whenever anyone of middle eastern appearance is accused of being or behaving in a way that is anything less than pure.


Actually I think most aussies are peaceful fun loving lot. Even the ones who wear a hijab and have long beards :)


The facts are different Elias. The great majority of Muslims here are peaceful, but do not hide your head in the sand and think that we are lucky in not having any of those nasty troublemakers they breed in those middle eastern trouble spots somewhere to the north of here.
[/quote]

I think Australia could set an example and not overstate the impact of what happens in the northern hemisphere. The general public are not going to know the difference between a terrorist and somebody of "muslim appearance" let the police and secret service deal with this matter discreetly rather than whipping the public into a false sense of danger. Of course our media are good at doing that.

[ditch]

I think Australia could set an example and not overstate the impact of what happens in the northern hemisphere. The general public are not going to know the difference between a terrorist and somebody of "muslim appearance" let the police and secret service deal with this matter discreetly rather than whipping the public into a false sense of danger. Of course our media are good at doing that.

You've lost me. "Not overstate the impact..." Do you mean we should have the mean and nasty truth kept from us because we would find it too hard to deal with? I hope that's not what you mean.

[Elias]

You've lost me. "Not overstate the impact..." Do you mean we should have the mean and nasty truth kept from us because we would find it too hard to deal with? I hope that's not what you mean.

I think the media is responsible to keep these issues in perspective of the Australian ethos of giving a "fair go"

Tarring all muslims with the same brush will create a atmosphere of distrust and xenaphobia that is symptomatic of some other countries

The "middle eastern appearance" could just as easily be "meditaranean" appearance,

I am waiting firm evidence before casting aspertions

[ShinyTop]

Funny that your wait for evidence seems to apply only to Muslims. The US and Israel are guilty based on a word.