Girl snatched, killed in shopping centre

[ethics]

This is REALLY messed up on so many levels.

Get this, the 8yr old is with TWO males, her uncle and her brother. They were with her at all times except when she wanted to go to the bathroom. Guess who was waiting there for her (random attack by this fuckface).


The schoolgirl, from the neighbouring suburb of Banjup, left her uncle, 14-year-old brother and 11-year-old sister to go to a toilet in the shopping centre at about 4pm (WST) Monday, police said.


When Sofia failed to emerge within a few minutes her uncle and brother searched the female and male toilets but could not find her.


They got no response when they knocked on the locked door of the disabled toilet, where police say the girl was probably being attacked at the time.


After searching the car park, her brother returned to the toilets and found Sofia's naked body on the toilet floor, as a man fled the scene.


The boy briefly gave chase before returning to his sister's body, police said.


And then this templated bullshit I am sooo friggin tired of hearing:


"It is probably the worst nightmare for any family with a young child.
"It's a horrific offence against an innocent young child who ... has just made the fatal mistake of being in the wrong place at the wrong time," he said.


No, she didn't make a friggin mistake, she went to friggin PEE!

Sorry folks, time to seriously gather these pedophiles and make a internment camp for them. Separate these idiots from the general population and I could care less whether this is Australia, England, or US.


Brooke McCaffree, 22, who works as a shop assistant at a gift shop next door to the toilets, said she was "absolutely disgusted".


"I just don't understand how this could happen, we live in a nice suburb," she said.
"The fact that I was there serving customers as this was happening in the next room, is just diabolical."


Hey Brooke? Wanna know why it doesn't matter whether you live in South Bronx or Beverly Hills? Because they COME TO YOU!

http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Girl-murdered-in-shopping-centre-toilet/2006/06/27/1151174144797.html

[tke711]

Oh man.......

The more I read these stories, the more I'm realizing that self defense lessons are most definitely in my daughters future. Not that those lessons would leave her completely protected, but they sure as hell can't hurt.

[cmhbob]

Wanna know why it doesn't matter whether you live in South Bronx or Beverly Hills? Because they COME TO YOU!Which is also the reason residence restrictions are useless.

[Coot]

Be glad you don't live in Cali. They parole these pieces of shit and put them in group homes...homes that fucked up corporates buy in decent neighborhoods. Said fucked up corporates then charge the state $3000/guest/month to house them. Turn a 4 bedroom home into a domicile that houses 12 pervs, all within convenient attacking distance of your family. Nevermind the fact that convicted felons are, by law, not allowed to hang out with each other, the state endeavors to make them best friends. Just checking the temp Leon, but are you still that anti death penalty?

[Elias]

Perth is like a quiet little town (it also is the most isolated capital city in the world). Having lived all my life in sleepy old Perth, I find this attack bizzare and out of place?

What I dont understand is what this deviant was doing in a womens' lavatory without being spotted?

I should imagine life without parole is the likely outcome, I am beginning to see the sense in having a death penalty in Australia

[ethics]

Just checking the temp Leon, but are you still that anti death penalty?
My anti-death penalty stance has nothing to do with the severity of the crime but the problems with the justice system being imperfect. I say put these mofo's in special camps with prison type security and let them live off the land or something like that. Make them work for dirt cheap labor as well.

[MNeedham73]

I am beginning to see the sense in having a death penalty in Australia

Ah, there might be hope for you yet.

[Domh]

Ah, there might be hope for you yet.
I'm not getting my hopes up. ;)

A human whose moral-ethical system is of the construct that they are sexually attracted to other humans who are not yet sexually mature has an incurable mental disease.

When they act out, as in this case, there are only two logical reactions that a society has:

1. Exterminate the mentally diseased human thereby ensuring they do not repeat the behavior.

2. Permanently isolate the human thereby ensuring they do not repeat the behavior.

While option one has been demonstrated to be, overall, more expensive (in the USA) than life imprisonment, it should also be considered that this option is usually supported by those who are exhibiting a strong reaction of vengeance on the mentally ill. While that reaction is extremely healthy, in cases such as these, it is also inherently illogical and should not be considered when deciding which course of action to take with the offendor.

If option two is fiscally feasable, it is it the preffered and more logical option, even though it has been clearly demonstrated that sexual deviants who act out can not be cured of their illness.

Sounds all nice and rational and logical, right?

It is, but it's also typical, non-evolutionary thinking wholly based on dominant global social and cultural paradigms. In other words, its the same old bullshit.

Homo Sapiens is a unique and fascinating animal that, like all animals on Earth, is evolving.

We have not evolved to the point where we regularly and properly act on the differentiation between issues of logic and issues of emotion.

A child rapist is an incurably sick animal. Incurably sick animals should be shot. To NOT shoot an incurably sick animal is inherently illogical AND inherently lacking in compassion.

Condolences should be genuinely offered to the animals family because, unluckily, they lost the genetic lottery that we all enter when we procreate.

Modern society has, finally and only very recently, the scientific and logical capacity to prove guilt in cases of child rape.

Child rapists should be brought up on charge and, if found guilty beyond any doubt whatsoever, should be immediately executed in the basement of the courthouse. If they wish to have 1 hour with their family, under supervision, to say goodbye... fine.

Frankly, its the only solution that is logical, compassionate and evolutionary.

[MNeedham73]

can't argue with you there, Domh. Neither can South Carolina and a few other states. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189423,00.html)

[ethics]

If you are 100% sure that's the sick animal by all means. Our Justice System (hell, anyone's in the world) is NOT 100% sure, or just.

[Domh]

Our Justice System (hell, anyone's in the world) is NOT 100% sure, or just.

There are thousands of cases where the accused has been proven beyond any doubt, reasonable or otherwise, to have commited the crime in question.

Genetic evidence isn't always perfect, but it's getting there.

As for Justice, with a capital J, well... that's a thread of it's own I guess, but one that certainly ties in with my discussion of the way homo sapiens deals with logic versus emotion when addressing aberrant, and abhorrent, behavior.

[Elias]

Brooke McCaffree, 22, who works as a shop assistant at a gift shop next door to the toilets, said she was "absolutely disgusted".
"I just don't understand how this could happen, we live in a nice suburb," she said.
"The fact that I was there serving customers as this was happening in the next room, is just diabolical."


For what its worth - Canningvale is a light industrial area south/east of Perth with textile mills, brewery, petroleum storage and transport depots. its not high on the list of areas I would call "nice suburb"..............along with nearby Maddington it has a relatively high crime rate compared with the northern suburbs.

With respect to the death penalty, I think this individual deserves to get a humane injection to put him out of his misery. However I suspect it wont act as a deterrant to other psychopaths as their behaviour is usually dictated by a chemical imbalance rather than fear of punishment.

[ShinyTop]

There are crimes, and attacks on children should be among them, that are so heinous you study the criminal for, oh, a max of 2 days and then publicly execute him in a very painful (yes, cruel and unusual) manner. Ya, and be sure of the guilt. At some point a crime's victim should outweigh whether it is because of an inbalance or just an evil being. Society has rights too, and one of which should be to live without scum like this.

[ditch]

I'm just as disgusted, saddened and amazed at this crime and others like it, for example the two 8 year old girls found dead in Belgium (http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/missing-belgian-girls-strangled-one-raped/2006/06/29/1151174336848.html), as everyone else is. But I cannot condone the solution that many are proposing here. Without launching into a debate on CP, all I can say is what I have said before. As loathsome as they are, a civilised community must deal with its rejects in a more cilvilised manner than killing them. They are the inhumane scum they are being called. But for me, any behaviour they generate from the rest of us should never approach the behaviour they have exhibited themselves. The great majority of us are a lot better than that.

[Domh]

...any behaviour they generate from the rest of us should never approach the behaviour they have exhibited themselves. The great majority of us are a lot better than that.

One who murders could, possibly, not be a sick animal and could, possibly, be cured of the sickness that drove them to murder... and could, possibly, rejoin a civil society. For that reason, I feel that murderers should be locked away and studied in an attempt to treat them and understand their sickness.

One who rapes a child is a sick animal who cannot be cured.

Sick animals who cannot be cured are to be PUT DOWN.

It is the only compassionate and HUMANE thing to do.

By saying you cannot support the execution of child rapists you simultaneously infer that their sickness is somehow curable and that they should be treated in the same fashion as those whose sickness drives them to murder.

It has been proven time and time again that the sickness that leads one to rape a child is not a curable sickness.

Therefore, when such an animal is put down, we do not face the same moral dilemna we face when we execute one who has himself executed another.

[ditch]

One who murders could, possibly, not be a sick animal and could, possibly, be cured of the sickness that drove them to murder... and could, possibly, rejoin a civil society. For that reason, I feel that murderers should be locked away and studied in an attempt to treat them and understand their sickness.

One who rapes a child is a sick animal who cannot be cured.

Sick animals who cannot be cured are to be PUT DOWN.

It is the only compassionate and HUMANE thing to do.

By saying you cannot support the execution of child rapists you simultaneously infer that their sickness is somehow curable and that they should be treated in the same fashion as those whose sickness drives them to murder.

It has been proven time and time again that the sickness that leads one to rape a child is not a curable sickness.

Therefore, when such an animal is put down, we do not face the same moral dilemna we face when we execute one who has himself executed another.

That reasoning is fine Domh, providing you are a supporter of CP. If not, it doesn't hold water.

We are both looking at this from a different cultural perspective. That's unavoidable. The same can be said for one's attitude to private gun ownership. The culture and attitudes between the US and OZ are very different on these two issues. While I don't support gun ownership or CP I can understand your local attitudes a lot better now than I did a few years ago. And that's entirely due to what I've learnt at GA seeing the opinions of the members here and the reasoning behind your attitudes. But those attitudes are in large part, not transferable to the OZ scene. Think of us as a small country town with its own set of laws and a culture that's largely developed independently of a lot of outside influence and it may help put our situation in a perspective that can be applied to this debate.

[Lovehound]

One who rapes a child is a sick animal who cannot be cured.

Sick animals who cannot be cured are to be PUT DOWN.

It is the only compassionate and HUMANE thing to do.
I agree that with present day medical and behavioral knowledge it appears that pedophiles most often repeat their offensive behavior after being released from incarceration. Perhaps one day there will be a cure but that day has not arrived.

I'm not sure that capital punishment is the right solution, but it's either that--or imprisonment for life. If they can't keep them in prison permanently then death is the only other answer. Somebody please comment if I'm wrong.

I don't know that I would characterize it as compassionate and humane. I'd call it effective and final.

[jfcjrus]

An 8 year old child is raped and killed, and many fine folks seem concerned about the rights and welfare of the perpetrator.
As it should be, I guess, in a civilized society of law.

But I'll tell ya, I have not personally grown to the intellectual level required to object, in the least, if someone were to just hang the SOB, or even understand why anyone would want to spend money trying to 'fix' someone that had done such a thing.
Perhaps someday I'll understand why I have to breathe the same air as the human misfit that would commit such an act upon a child.

Today, I believe we humans must simply recognize that such individuals of our species that would do such things must be removed for the good of all mankind.
(Adults that prey on <i>children</i> are beyond redemption and have forfeited their rights, to me.)
Tomorrow, maybe I'll be as compasionate towards the perpetrator as some of you civilized folks.
But I wouldn't bet money on it.

And, if it happened to your child, I'd suspect you'd not disagree with me.

Regards,

[ditch]

I agree that with present day medical and behavioral knowledge it appears that pedophiles most often repeat their offensive behavior after being released from incarceration. Perhaps one day there will be a cure but that day has not arrived.

I'm not sure that capital punishment is the right solution, but it's either that--or imprisonment for life. If they can't keep them in prison permanently then death is the only other answer. Somebody please comment if I'm wrong.

I don't know that I would characterize it as compassionate and humane. I'd call it effective and final.

The number who re-offend means that life inside is the only option. At least the only one I could support.

[ditch]

An 8 year old child is raped and killed, and many fine folks seem concerned about the rights and welfare of the perpetrator.
As it should be, I guess, in a civilized society of law.

But I'll tell ya, I have not personally grown to the intellectual level required to object, in the least, if someone were to just hang the SOB, or even understand why anyone would want to spend money trying to 'fix' someone that had done such a thing.
Perhaps someday I'll understand why I have to breathe the same air as the human misfit that would commit such an act upon a child.

Today, I believe we humans must simply recognize that such individuals of our species that would do such things must be removed for the good of all mankind.
(Adults that prey on children are beyond redemption and have forfeited their rights, to me.)
Tomorrow, maybe I'll be as compasionate towards the perpetrator as some of you civilized folks.
But I wouldn't bet money on it.

And, if it happened to your child, I'd suspect you'd not disagree with me.

Regards,

I certainly don't want to create the impression that I am placing myself on a moral level that is above anyone else. It just happens to be my perspective on CP and is neither meant to be the high moral ground or anything else that might be called arrogant. Nor do I feel the slightest compassion for the offender. That isn't what determines my opinions here.

The question as to how I would react if one of my kids were the victim of a paedophile has been raised here before. I think my answer then, as it is now, is there is no perfect moral resolution to that dilemma. I'd want to take the offender apart with my own hands if given the chance. That may make me a hypocrite but I can only guess as to just how I would react and can offer no perfect answer to the question you ask.

My opinion is idealistic. But I don't think anyone of us should assume the decision to kill another, legally or otherwise, is morally defensible and unquestionably the correct way to react. That goes against the grain here I know, but that's how I see it.

[Domh]

That reasoning is fine Domh, providing you are a supporter of CP. If not, it doesn't hold water.

We are both looking at this from a different cultural perspective. That's unavoidable.

I don't address this issue from any cultural or social perspective whatsoever.

Where one lives has nothing to do with the issue. What ones local customs and cultural mores are has nothing to do with the issue.

Sick, untreatable animals that rape must be put down. Simple as that.

It has nothing to do with USA vs. OZ or any other place. It has everything to do with the humane and compassionate and responsible reaction to the behavior of a sick animal.

[Lovehound]

That [not using capital punishment] goes against the grain here I know, but that's how I see it.
No. Thoughtful, reasonable people disagree on the ethical dilemma of capital punishment here (at Global Affairs) and everywhere else. There is no good answer to this issue and I doubt there ever will be.

Sick, untreatable animals that rape must be put down. Simple as that.
The best I'll give you as that we must ensure that pedophiles do not repeat their offenses. Maybe the answer is capital punishment, maybe it's imprisonment for life, maybe there is some other workable method.

One thing I think we can all agree upon is that present measures are not working.

[Elias]

We are both looking at this from a different cultural perspective. That's unavoidable. The same can be said for one's attitude to private gun ownership. The culture and attitudes between the US and OZ are very different on these two issues. While I don't support gun ownership or CP I can understand your local attitudes a lot better now than I did a few years ago. And that's entirely due to what I've learnt at GA seeing the opinions of the members here and the reasoning behind your attitudes. But those attitudes are in large part, not transferable to the OZ scene. Think of us as a small country town with its own set of laws and a culture that's largely developed independently of a lot of outside influence and it may help put our situation in a perspective that can be applied to this debate.


I think there would still be a groundswell of support in Australia to have this guy executed. In this respect the cultural difference re: gun culture doesnt apply.

Certain crimes cross a particular cultural/social boundary (Taboo) where the perpatrator simply inflames a sense of disgust in the community in being kept alive on taxpayer funds. As the future of the human race depends on children it seems logical that individuals whose behaviour threaten the future of the species should be either permanently separated or executed for the good of society.

Any execution should be conducted "humanely". The community should also be aware that deviant behaviour is unlikely to be impacted by executions as the psychological state of future perpatrators may compel them to act regardless of the consequences to the victim or themselves.

[ditch]

I don't address this issue from any cultural or social perspective whatsoever.

Where one lives has nothing to do with the issue. What ones local customs and cultural mores are has nothing to do with the issue.

Sick, untreatable animals that rape must be put down. Simple as that.

It has nothing to do with USA vs. OZ or any other place. It has everything to do with the humane and compassionate and responsible reaction to the behavior of a sick animal.

We are all influenced by our environment to a certain extent. Like it or not, no man is an island. The Saudis flock to see public beheadings. Would that spectacle be allowed in the local park in any state in the US? Or Oz. Your attitude towards the offender in this example Domh, is determined in part at least, by the environmental/cultural influences on you. What you consider to be "humane and compassionate and responsible reaction" is not universal. Nor am I saying that it is totally culture specific. What I am saying is that differences in attitudes, sometimes subtle, sometimes a lot less so, have a cultural specific component to them.

[ditch]

No. Thoughtful, reasonable people disagree on the ethical dilemma of capital punishment here (at Global Affairs) and everywhere else. There is no good answer to this issue and I doubt there ever will be.


The best I'll give you as that we must ensure that pedophiles do not repeat their offenses. Maybe the answer is capital punishment, maybe it's imprisonment for life, maybe there is some other workable method.

One thing I think we can all agree upon is that present measures are not working.

No, current punishments are not working. The offence is repulsive and disgusting enough to warrant a specific type of sentence. There is a very significant amount of recidivism with this type of offence and the punishment must reflect that. For me CP isn't the option.

[rowd]

The solution is simple.

Blind them. You can't attack someone if you cannot see. You would not have to imprision them. They could still lead productive work lives and support themselves, and they would never be able to attack a child again. I would take their ability to see away from them.

[ditch]

I think there would still be a groundswell of support in Australia to have this guy executed. In this respect the cultural difference re: gun culture doesnt apply.

Certain crimes cross a particular cultural/social boundary (Taboo) where the perpatrator simply inflames a sense of disgust in the community in being kept alive on taxpayer funds. As the future of the human race depends on children it seems logical that individuals whose behaviour threaten the future of the species should be either permanently separated or executed for the good of society.

Any execution should be conducted "humanely". The community should also be aware that deviant behaviour is unlikely to be impacted by executions as the psychological state of future perpatrators may compel them to act regardless of the consequences to the victim or themselves.
Yes, certain crimes do engender wide community anger. Anger which is often spurred on by the press and big mouth politicians trying to impress the electorate. It's important though to not confuse public reaction to infrequently occurring emotionally charged cases, such as this one, and public opinion on capital punishment per se. CP will never be reintroduced here on a tide of public anger to individual cases that dies as soon as the next scandal is exposed by the tabloid media trying to draw the attention of the masses looking for something new to be angry at.

Perhaps you could elaborate on what constitutes a "humane execution" and why such offenders deserve to be "humanely" put down. If it is important to be humane about it then it seems to me that you are mainly concerned with removing them from the community permanently, and that isn't necessarily something that necessitates killing them. If cost is the issue then I think the discussion is moving to a new level. Simple economics. If so, then we are straying too far from the reason for out difference of opinion.

[ditch]

The solution is simple.

Blind them. You can't attack someone if you cannot see. You would not have to imprision them. They could still lead productive work lives and support themselves, and they would never be able to attack a child again. I would take their ability to see away from them.

You could also castrate them. Probably be more use to society if they were not blind...and no threat to children.

[ethics]

You could also castrate them. Probably be more use to society if they were not blind...and no threat to children.

This was proven not to work.

Goes with the legislature that made rape on par with murder. Know what the perps did? After raping, they killed (100% of the time).

[Lovehound]

What you consider to be "humane and compassionate and responsible reaction" is not universal.
To the contrary, I would say that humaneness and compassion are actually more rare than the converse. I'm thinking about the Romans and their Colosseum (for sport), and the Mayas, Toltecs, Aztecs, Incas, etc., (blood sacrifices to their gods). Admittedly my examples are not punishment per se.

I've wondered if humane is perhaps a bit misdefined. It should mean blood thirsty, viscious, cruel.

[Lovehound]

You could also castrate them. Probably be more use to society if they were not blind...and no threat to children.
Besides Leon's earlier comment, what you'd end up with (castration) is somebody who not only has a major grudge against society, but also incapable of getting any satisfaction (even by masturbation), and IMO would probably be more motivated than ever to kill. Keep in mind that rape is not a result of too much testosterone. Rather, it's a violent need to control and subjugate their victims. Taking away the testosterone won't fix that. (Note also that many acts of rape involve use of inanimate objects rather than a penis.)

Maybe blinding them and cutting off their arms might work... I don't know why that would be any more humane than simply killing them in the first place.

There are only three measures I can think of:

(1) Capital punishment.

(2) Incarceration for life.

(3) Wait until perhaps one day medical science develops a cure.

[Coot]

The ability for a male to orgasm does not disapper with castration. While the prostrate will shrink, it does not disappear. And if male hormones are taken, it really doesn't shrink much at all.

[Lovehound]

The ability for a male to orgasm does not disapper with castration.
I'm presuming your reply appears to be directed at me simply because you hit the general "Reply" button rather than intending any correction of my comment above.

In fact I more or less agree with you, except that I would add that castration generally refers to removal of the testes ("balls"), that the testes are the main source of the male sex hormone testosterone, and that a lowering of the testosterone level is generally associated with a decreased sex drive, the urge to partake in sex.

However, rape is more of an act of violence and control rather than an act of sex. In my opinion, reduction or cessitation of testosterone production is not likely to reduce the pervo's desire to commit violence, at least to any degree of assurance or predictability.

Surgical removal of the heart would be a better solution. :)

[Coot]

Yes, I was replying to the thread in general. The reduction in libido is not universal among eunichs. Prepubescent castration will always do this, but after sexual gratification has been achieved, it is forever locked into the hypothalmus and that has at least as much effect on libido as do hormones, if not more.

[cmhbob]

So can this guy (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201918,00.html) get out, assuming he's served out his prison sentence?

[Coot]

So can this guy (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201918,00.html) get out, assuming he's served out his prison sentence?

He's served out his prison sentence already. California has the legal means to transfer these perps to the State Hospital System after their sentences are up to keep them from the public at large. If the judge determines that there is sufficient grounds to put this in front of a jury, then yes he could be freed if the jury makes that determination. Sadly, the transfer to the State Hospital System is not a life sentence.

[Elias]

CP will never be reintroduced here on a tide of public anger to individual cases that dies as soon as the next scandal is exposed by the tabloid media trying to draw the attention of the masses looking for something new to be angry at.


I agree. The tabloids and pollies are looking to make a bit of milage from the issue. However public oponion is based on a certain level of morals and decency.


Perhaps you could elaborate on what constitutes a "humane execution" and why such offenders deserve to be "humanely" put down. If it is important to be humane about it then it seems to me that you are mainly concerned with removing them from the community permanently, and that isn't necessarily something that necessitates killing them. If cost is the issue then I think the discussion is moving to a new level. Simple economics. If so, then we are straying too far from the reason for out difference of opinion.
[/QUOTE]

good point, a humane execution is one that (ideally) minimises the level of suffering on the individual. However, I (like most Australians) have a preference for separating them from the mainstream community. Prison farms where the prisoners can be set to work productively seems like a logical idea.

In this case the perpatrator should not be paroled, it seems likely the chance to re-offend will always be high. He has already crossed that line

[Lovehound]

... I (like most Australians) have a preference for separating them from the mainstream community. Prison farms where the prisoners can be set to work productively seems like a logical idea.
Wow! Who'd a thunk I'd ever agree with you? :)

(English slang must really f--- up people who don't speak English as a first language.)

Kill 'em or separate them forever. I prefer killing them because it's not fair to burden society to board and feed them for the rest of their lives at state expense. (I don't personally have any problem with the death penalty.) However, Elias has a good idea in "prison farms" where they could lead some semblance of normal (but confined) life and earn their keep--and never again have access to victims.

[ditch]

good point, a humane execution is one that (ideally) minimises the level of suffering on the individual. However, I (like most Australians) have a preference for separating them from the mainstream community. Prison farms where the prisoners can be set to work productively seems like a logical idea.

In this case the perpatrator should not be paroled, it seems likely the chance to re-offend will always be high. He has already crossed that line[/quote]

I really believe that forcing an offender who is permanently separated from mainstream society, to work for his salt on tasks that benefit the rest of the community, for the rest of his days, is a significant and realistic form of punishment. And a preferable alternative to CP. Forcing cooperation from the unwilling offenders is another matter and one I don't have any ideas on.

[Lovehound]

Forcing cooperation from the unwilling offenders is another matter and one I don't have any ideas on.
Given the choice between maximum security solitary lockup for 23 hours a day, or working in a shop or field, I believe that most would opt for the work program. The rest--let them rot in solitary. That's their choice. And it was their choice when they offended in the first place.

[jfcjrus]

Given the choice between maximum security solitary lockup for 23 hours a day, or working in a shop or field, I believe that most would opt for the work program. The rest--let them rot in solitary. That's their choice. And it was their choice when they offended in the first place.
Come on, guys, you know it's not that easy!
Making prisoners <i>work</i> for their own sustinence?
Good god man, don't you know that such a thing was outlawed decades ago?
It was deemed inhumane.

Don't get me wrong, I'm old enough to remember when prisoners grew their own produce for the chowline, and even had enough left over to sell to buy their smokes and whatnot.
And everything seemed to go pretty well in such prisons around here.
Prisoners <i>earned</i> the ability to drive the tractor, in the fresh air, to harvest the crop.

But that practice was, long ago, deemed barbaric, in that it was inappropiate to require or expect such work from prisoners.
Those prison farms are long gone around here.

So, are you guys suggesting prisoners once again earn their own keep, as they used to do, not even 20 years ago?
Whew, I'd suspect you've got millions of modern bleeding-heart liberals to overcome before you'll ever achieve that again!

Just my opinion. ;)
Regards,

[Lovehound]

Come on, guys, you know it's not that easy!
Making prisoners <i>work</i> for their own sustinence? ...
Perhaps you did not read my post carefully, or perhaps I was unskillful in explaining myself.

Each prisoner is free to choose to either work at the shop or farm, or stay in their cell all day. Either way they would get the same room and board, and be allowed an hour per day for exercise (which seems to be a standard for maximum security prisons). There is no coercion other than being rewarded for work by being allowed to leave their cells.

I'm not advocating any grueling punishment either. They could do gardening, handicrafts, light manufacturing, whatever seems to be a reasonable and appropriate occupation for somebody who will be imprisoned for life. I see no reason why the working inmates should not get days off either. I feel that I'm being way more humane than these dirtbags deserve.

Work, or rot in the cell--it's up to each inmate to decide. Perhaps work would give them some meaning to their lives, and some alternative to rotting in a cell until they die.

[dliw]

It is stories such as this which makes me think out of the norm. Meaning punishment for such scum should be exquisitely painful and drawn out torture and then death.

[Domh]

What you consider to be "humane and compassionate and responsible reaction" is not universal.

True... but it sure as shit SHOULD BE.

We are all the same species of animal.

It is wrong to whip somebody with a stick if they spit gum on the street in Singapore. It's simply wrong. It is excessive and INHUMANE punishment.

To say "Oh well... that is just the way they are over there, and it is their right to mete out punishment as they see fit because it is THEIR society, and they are special and different and we do not and can not understand them" is to conveniently, and irresponsibly, walk away from the problem.

NIMBY... right? Not In My Back Yard. It doesn't happen in MY neighborhood... I don't live in Oakland, so... it is up to them to decide what is humane and what is not humane in their neighborhood, right? If they want to deal crack and shoot each other in the brain, well... I live in NH! Sweet! No worries!

What utter and contemptible bullshit.

Humane behavior is humane behavior world wide, because the homo sapien is the homo sapien, world wide.

Raping a child is the act of a sick homo sapien... WORLD WIDE. The compassionate and responsible thing to do to a sick and incurable homo sapien, WORLD WIDE... is to exterminate it.

I do not care if the disease is incurable cancer or incurable desire to rape children. In the case of the cancer, the incurable person is not hurting others, and therefore the logical and compassionate reaction is to ask them when and how they want to die, whether or not they wish to suffer etc. If they ask to be put down NOW, that wish should be granted.

In the case of the child rapist, the incurable person is dramatically and horribly affecting the lives of many people around them, causing extreme emotional anguish and trauma. Because of this, the incurable person should be immediately executed.

It blows my mind that people go to the greatest lengths they can to defend their belief in the sanctity of this state of existence we call life, no matter the circumstance. Religious, fiscal, political, territorial, social, cultural etc... there are always a million reasons to NOT KILL A SICK ANIMAL.... while there is always only ONE compassionate and responsible and logical reaction to that sick animal, and it is extermination.

[Lovehound]

It is stories such as this which makes me think out of the norm. Meaning punishment for such scum should be exquisitely painful and drawn out torture and then death.
So we can presume that you are not impressed with the Eighth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)?

[Domh]

So we can presume that you are not impressed with the Eighth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)?

I will never be impressed with the Eighth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution until it is written in such a way as to compassionately and logically address cruel and unusual crimes.

[ditch]

True... but it sure as shit SHOULD BE.

We are all the same species of animal.
............



Yes it should......but there is no difference in how you or I are assessing these crimes. We both are seeing them as grossly inhumane. The difference is how we are saying they should be punished. They may be universally held in contempt but the punishment that is seen as fitting differs from culture to culture.

It is wrong to whip somebody with a stick if they spit gum on the street in Singapore. It's simply wrong. It is excessive and INHUMANE punishment.

To say "Oh well... that is just the way they are over there, and it is their right to mete out punishment as they see fit because it is THEIR society, and they are special and different and we do not and can not understand them" is to conveniently, and irresponsibly, walk away from the problem.

But I can say it is WRONG to electrocute someone for a crime they have committed and you can come back to me and say the punishment fits the crime and for Oz to gaol the offender is soft...

Just what is seen as fit and proper punishment is subjective and culture specific. Stoning a woman for committing adultery, while the man goes unpunished, is atrocious treatment and WRONG. Cutting off the hand of one who steals is barbaric. I do not think that there are are universal rights and wrongs to the exclusion of all other alternatives when it comes to punishment. There are certainly universally recognised crimes that are punished severely by all cultures. But the punishments differ and there is not necessarily only one punishment that can be legitimately seen as appropriate.

And I cannot condone legally killing an offender either by electrocution, stoning, firing squad, injection or beheading or whatever. That doesn't make me right or wrong or you right or wrong for thinking differently.

[Lovehound]

I can really see where you're coming from, Ditch, but I can't agree with you. OTOH, I can't agree with Domh either. I figure if the crime is sufficient we should put 'em in the earth as quickly as possible, but there's no use in torturing them--considering that I don't believe in life after death, don't believe that torture to death serves any useful purposes beyond gratifying our need for revenge and avengement. (Not withstanding that my favorite movie is The Crow: City of Angels.)

Maybe I would agree that torture would serve a purpose if I thought that the punishment was a deterrent, but time after time, study after study, it has been shown that pedophiles are motivated by an irrestible attraction, that there is something in their inner souls that motivates them to perpetrate these horrible crimes.

At present there is no solution other than to kill them, imprison them for life, or just accept the terrible toll from their crimes. I'm just not willing to accept that we have to let them continue their crimes. Society (apparently) isn't willing to kill them or send them to prison for life.

[ditch]

Pedophiles are sick. They commit some of the worst crimes and don't deserve to live. The challenge is to punish in a manner that is not borne out of the need for revenge, I agree, but one that results in PERMANENT removal of their threat to anyone. Killing them certainly achieves that but I can't accept that solution and letting them continue their crimes is totally out of the question as I'm sure we'd all agree. If gaol is the fence sitting option then that's where I have to hang my sign, in as a "still open for discussion" manner as possible.

[Domh]

I can't agree with Domh either. I figure if the crime is sufficient we should put 'em in the earth as quickly as possible, but there's no use in torturing them...

Wait - Im sorry... did I advise torture? Im not trying to be confrontational, I just dont remember suggesting torturing rapists.

I just think they should be shot in the head within hours of being judged guilty.

I dont think rapists should be tortured. Torture costs money. Why waste money on a guilty rapist?

[Lovehound]

Why waste money on a guilty rapist?
Indeed. Let's just plant them as soon as possible. Maybe one day we will have a treatment, but that day is not now.