U.S. Orders Ban of Arms Sales to Venezuela

[ethics]

The Bush administration is banning arms sales from the U.S. to Venezuela, America's fifth-largest source for oil imports, because of what it says is a lack of support by President Hugo Chavez's government for counterterrorism.

Aw, come on, George, tell us the real reason will ya? Tell them that a Socialist/Commie country should not be buying M16's anyway...

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/venezuela

[Sierra Mike]

:lol: Yeah, that's what AK-47s are for!

SM

[ethics]

Exactly! Let them buy from Russia and Iran.

[Franze]

No, no, no, you got it all wrong, they'll be buying Type 56s from China, y'all should know that. :haha:

[MNeedham73]

This just got a little more interesting. Seems that Chavez is now considering selling Venezuela's F-16 Falcons to Iran or another country, (http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/venezuela)
in response to the ban.

I don't see the odds of those jets ever making it out of Venezuela being very high. Just my opinion.

[Sierra Mike]

And if they did, I don't see the chances of spares being made available to keep them in flyable condition a likely occurrence, either.

Actually, this is just bluster on the part of Chavez. Transferring American technology to a hostile nation is definitely part of the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) act.

SM

[MNeedham73]

I believe it is also. But, I don't think Chavez much cares about that sort of thing. If it is bluster, then fine.

If the US government thinks otherwise, I wouldn't be surprised if I were Chavez to see a few Aegis cruisers and/or destroyers, perhaps escorting a carrier, sitting just outside of Venezuela's territorial waters.

Sounds like a good time for a CENTAM deployment.

[ethics]

Oh yeah? which fantasy land is that? the one where the world yearns for liberation and American style Freedom and Democracy and the US has won the hearts and minds of the Islamic world?

Topic is Venezuela and perhaps Iran, although OT. Not America. Follow the rules please.

[cyrus]

Abusing mod powers, are we?

My first comment was absolutely on topic.

Then you replied with a personal comment and I replied in kind.

Then you delete everything except your selective quoting of my comment.

...extremely lame ethics.

[ethics]

Cry me a river?

I've split the thread and moved it to a more specific forum with a better title.

http://www.globalaffairs.org/forum/showthread.php?t=44679

I don't delete things. A clown should be watched not censored.

[Arc]

We are of course the largest arms dealer in the world. So when we cut someone off, regardless of reason, there has to be repercussions. Only question is will they be good or bad?

[Consensus]

Russian arms arrive in Venezuela (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5045208.stm)

Venezuela has received its first delivery of tens of thousands of Russian assault rifles.

I wonder if the rifles are for the army or the citizen militias?

[ethics]

It's for many reasons, among them what you mentioned above.

Another reason is posturing and bowing down to Russia's form of sales -- or rubbing the other hand.

[Franze]

AK103s? Why, for some reason, do I doubt that they'd be that many AK103s in a batch of 100k?

When's he going to buy some Hinds, Havocs, Hokums, Flankers, Fulcrums and Frogfeet? Could really use the target practice.

[Stiofán]

I wonder if the rifles are for the army or the citizen militias?
[/SIZE]


Yes. Only which armies and militias (and FARC) is the proper question.

[jimeez]

Is this (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/07/27/russia.venezuela.reut/index.html) significant in any way?

MOSCOW, Russia (Reuters) -- Russia said Thursday it had sold 24 aircraft and 53 helicopters to Venezuela, defying the United States, which has urged Moscow to halt arms sales to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

Russia's arms export chief, speaking as Chavez met Russian President Vladimir Putin in the Kremlin, said the aircraft deal was part of a long-term package of arms contracts with Venezuela that was worth more than $3 billion.Does the U.S. have any recourse? Does it even matter?

[ethics]

1. No. Because of #2
2. No.


Why? What did Russia sell them? Answer: PURE junk.

[jimeez]

What did Russia sell them? Answer: PURE junk.That I understand. What I don't understand is why would Putin "defy" a request like that from the U.S.? What's Putin's motivation?

[ethics]

What I don't understand is why would Putin "defy" a request like that from the U.S.? What's Putin's motivation?

Easy, last week Bush blocked entry of Russia in to WTO (rightfully so).

[MNeedham73]

It was my understanding that the Sukhoi SU-30 is anything but junk. From everything I've read on it, it is a very capable aircraft. Especially the MKI variant that is being sold to Venezuela.

[ethics]

You military guys know a lot more on this than I. But I do know that SU-30 is not up to par to our best fleet of planes. I also know that Russia would never ever sell their best to anyone.

[Sierra Mike]

It doesn't seem to be a bad airplane, but I'm sure the avionics, weapons systems, and usual poor piloting skills endemic to Venezuela probably will conspire to make it a poor airplane. :)

SM

[ShinyTop]

The SU30 is a development of the SU27. The SU27 and Mig29 were developed to counter our F15 and F16. As counters they were designed somewhat later and both were considered more maneuverable than our fighters. And they were the first to use helmet mounted sights and were regarded to have a much better IR capable missile than ours. But the proof is in the pudding and thus far the F15 and F16 combination has proved to be unbeatable, literally in the case of the F15, not one has been lost in aerial combat but it has destroyed many enemy aircraft.

It can be argued all day long whether it is the aircraft, the radar, the missiles or the training of the pilots but thus far the combination has favored the American offerings.

I strongly support Steve in his evaluation that the Ven pilots and training will be no match if they must face us.

[MNeedham73]

Here's the wikipedia version of the specs of the SU-30MKI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su-30MKI). Looks like India had a large hand in upgrading the SU-30 to this variant. Beautiful plane too.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b2/Su30MKI_3.jpg/800px-Su30MKI_3.jpg

Here's a list of improvements over the MK variant:

Canard Foreplanes:Canards are installed to increase lifting effectiveness and enhance manoeuvrability of the aircraft,They are deflected automatically to ensure flight at high angle-of-attack.
Thrust Vectoring Control: The 2D TVC makes an aircraft highly maneuverable.The aircraft is capable of near-zero airspeed at high angles of attack and dynamic aerobatics in negative speeds up to 200 km/h.
The N011-M Bars Radar for the Su 30 MKI is a phased array system with a powerful processor and multiple targets track capability using NCTR methods. It can track 20 Targets and Engage 8 targets.
Integration with Western Avionics:France and Israel supplied Latest Avionics including Display, Navigation, Targeting and Electronic warfare systems.
Su-30MKI is similar to Su-30MK in other factors like Long Range, High Payload, Aerodynamic configuration.About 50 Su-30 MKI aircraft are serving in the IAF, and 190 in all are expected to be in service by 2012.


Israeli and French avionics...with friends like that.....

[Franze]

Look at how often Su's crash at airshows, and you'll find out just how good they really are.

Ok, I admit it, I like the Flanker series, but damned if it's not overhyped. Lots of bogus claims are made about the aircraft, and I for one don't see it getting anywhere in a real fight against western jets.

K-36 is a great ejection seat, though. You get to see it demonstrated a lot!

[ShinyTop]

Our F22 is now in service. So if we can see them from 50 miles and they cannot see us on radar until much closer who do you think will win? But many think we do not need the F22 now that the Cold War is over? Riiiiiight.

[jimeez]

Ok. Maybe I am missing the point.

You guys are going on about the quality/technology of the planes involved in the transaction. Is that really the issue here? Have I missed something?

The way I see it, the big issue in all of this is the blatant disregard (on Russia's part) of an Ally's request. I'm no expert (obviously) on Global politics/relations, but aren't the Soviets supposed to be our friends? Or has it all been a facade? I would think this transaction would have a negative impact on our relationship. Perhaps I misunderstand our relationship in the first place?

At least we were successful in blocking (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/07/27/venezuela.planes.ap/index.html) a Spanish deal.

[Biker]

Russia thinks of nobody else but Russia. If there's cash in the deal, they're going to make it, regardless of the consequences.

So what if they sell all that stuff. Even if they do manage to train someone to the point to where they can use it, it still isn't gonna do 'em much good. And with that type of cash flow going OUT of the country, Chavez may have a hard time selling his policies to the "people".

[ethics]

Did you read my article? That should have told you everything you need to know and as Biker said, Russia cares only about Russia.

[jimeez]

I must be blind, dumb, or both...but, aside from the link in your first post, I don't see an article in any of your posts, Leon. :???:

Fearful of the reception, I hesitated in posting this (http://www.hallindseyoracle.com/articles.asp?ArticleID=13165). But what the hay! Maybe this is all part of the Russian plan.

[Copzilla]

The blunt answer to your question is no, Russia is not our ally.

In fact, Russia is still in denial about being broken apart. They still think they run stuff.

There's just still too much old-school controlling everything in Russia for it to change. And it will be that way for another 20-30 years.

[Arc]

If there's cash in the deal, they're going to make it, regardless of the consequences.


That one statement about Russia contains more bang for the buck than any I've ever heard or read.