New China?

[ethics]

A couple of recent news items about China have intrigued me. NPR reported that a stage adaptation of <a href="http://discover.npr.org/features/feature.jhtml?wfId=845088">Animal Farm is showing in Beijing</a> (audio link). And a Chinese national who has spent much of his life in America but recently returned to his hometown, Shanghai, <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/17/weekinreview/17ZHAO.html">reflects on how much things have changed there</a>.

It seems amazing that Animal Farm could be showing in China. But the story makes clear that while the older generation found it moving and relevant, the younger generation just didn't get it--perhaps because they were all busy sending text messages to their friends on their cellphones during the play?

The story in the NY Times is even more astounding:"

<blockquote>I listened to my 14-year-old cousin sing rap in Chinese about the fantasized martial arts, jiang hu. When I asked him about Chairman Mao, he gave me a blank stare, just like teenagers in Harlem had when I inquired about Malcolm X. "Who is Mao?" my cousin asked. "They might have mentioned him in school, but I didn't pay attention."</blockquote>

If nobody except for politicians care about politics, then everyone else will leave the politicians alone to do...whatever they want. Is it possible that China's political class has secured its future by making the citizens fat and happy, and pretending that it is irrelevant? Has something similar happened in the USA and elsewhere?

[Pyrion]

Has something similar happened in the USA and elsewhere?

Oh yes. In the 'States, IMO people have gotten so sick of the government that they don't want to have anything to do with it. Look at the voter turnout for the latest elections, for example. Only 39% of the country actually gave a damn. In general I doubt most people care at all as long as whatever happens doesn't affect their pocketbooks.

[ethics]

Originally posted by Dark Seraph
Oh yes. In the 'States, IMO people have gotten so sick of the government that they don't want to have anything to do with it. Look at the voter turnout for the latest elections, for example. Only 39% of the country actually gave a damn. In general I doubt most people care at all as long as whatever happens doesn't affect their pocketbooks.

I fear you are right. :(

[Sierra Mike]

While I've been to Shanghai and had some great times there, I've never really liked it. I prefer staid Beijing--which is actually a steaming cauldron of inequity, if you know where to look, and right under the noses of the government--or good old Hong Kong. Shanghai is like a painted whore--made up real pretty, but still a whore.

While the Red Princes in Beijing pour money into Shanghai, trying to make it again the Queen City of the Orient, they do so at the expense of Hong Kong. And while they might fancy Shanghai will one day rival New York as the world's greatest city, they'll forever fall short.

SM

[Pyrion]

Lucky people... I've never been outside the 'States, and yes, I live about fifty miles from the U.S./Mexican border. ;)

[Sierra Mike]

Originally posted by PhyreFox
Lucky people... I've never been outside the 'States, and yes, I live about fifty miles from the U.S./Mexican border. ;) I'm a born Tejan from Corpus Christi, so if they'll let me out, you'll have no problem!

It's the getting back in that's the tough part...

SM

[Misu]

Ok, I have to defend teenagers here. Why?

Corporate America is making all these cool techie toys - Xbox, Playstation2 (3 coming soon), a bazillion new game titles (at 50 bucks a pop), cell phones with text capabilities, HDTV's, DVD's, Broadband thats supposed to get faster, Mp3's, portable handheld computers like the new Dell Axiam (someone buy me that pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease). It takes a LOT to learn all that stuff. Today's youth has difference interests. Today's youth is focused on technology and games and IM's and online and Harry Potter and all that crap because that is what's being forced down their throats by Corporate America.

One of the largest fields for newly graduated psych majors to get a job is: ADVERTISING. Corporate America is specifically aiming it's products at YOUNGSTERS - because that is where the money is.

So adults are saying how dissappointed they are with today's youth - meanwhile, they're taking home fat paychecks from companies like Dell and Microsoft and T-Mobile and Sprint, companies that are RELYING on the youth of America to get into the technology that will eventually make the world go round in the future and fill their bank accounts with money today.

[Sierra Mike]

Fat paychecks? In technology? In THIS marketplace?

SM

[Misu]

Hey, fatter than what a teacher or receptionist are making :P

[Pyrion]

Or electrical engineers at defense contractors... ;)

[chaichaoyi]

Cynicism of politics is common in every country. In China, as long as one is not bullied directly by a party official, one will not risk one's life to rise up and overthrow the rule of party. The Chinese have been starved for hundreds of years, thus they don't expect too much. I cannot imagine any alternative form of government that can really bring them economic development.

[Biker]

Nothing like dragging up old history. Sheesh! :haha:

[Elias]

It seems amazing that Animal Farm could be showing in China.

I wasnt aware Orwell was anti-communist? didnt he fight with the communists against Franco's fascist forces in Spain in 1936? My interpratation of Animal Farm was it parodied totalitariasm, I guess that still might be an embarrasment to China

[chaichaoyi]

But Animal Farm is not banned in China. neither is 1984. ]actually recently i Have seen some semi-anticommunist articles and essays in several major magazines and newspapers. Even there are only 5 percent of the population that care about politics, that is more than 60 million, which the CCP cannot afford to ignore. Thus, the CCP is doomed to lose control of China. But what i care the most is who will be in charge of China then.

[John R. Beanham]

CCY,


" But what i care the most is who will be in charge of China then."


How about something along the lines of,

"OF the people, BY the people, FOR the people."


JB

[ethics]

I wasnt aware Orwell was anti-communist? didnt he fight with the communists against Franco's fascist forces in Spain in 1936? My interpratation of Animal Farm was it parodied totalitariasm, I guess that still might be an embarrasment to China

Uhm, that was as close to blasphemy as you can say about Orwell.

1. Orwell did fight with the Commies, it's why the entire writings and his life shaping was totally against it. He was within the "machine" and got to see what it was worth.

2. Animal Farm was a satire on many things, including totalitairism. Snowball was Trotsky, Napoleon was Stalin, etc... The most famous quotes is based on Communist regime, the duplicity and hypocrisy therein.

[chaichaoyi]

Of the people: it depends. The leader elected should be well-educated, charismatic and confident. Populist but mediocre leaders should all be kicked away.
By the people: No. Power should be in the hands of only a few.
For the people: Yes. There should be a kind of contractual relationship between the massas and the ruling party, government should treat all people equally well.

A system of checks and counterbalance is neccessary, but it should be established within the ruling class. Other people should keep away from politics.

I may be too conservative, but i see no alternative.

[Elias]

For the people: Yes. There should be a kind of contractual relationship between the massas and the ruling party, government should treat all people equally well.


This would be a good alternative to a liberal democracy, provided the contract covered all areas of governance relating to boundaries for conduct and limitations to passing laws without a referendum first,

leaders could be selected on the basis of being responsible and educated, with a drive and passion to help the country

[John R. Beanham]

Elias,


"limitations to passing laws without a referendum first,"


Governments pass 100s of laws every year. How many do you suggest we hold a referendum on first? Our society would be unworkable if we had, say, 25 or 50 campaigns and referendums on 25 or 50 different points.

That is why we have REPRESENTATIVES, to make those decisions on our behalf.


JB

[drntdrtydg]

your avatar looks like the Shrike from Hyperion

[ethics]

The book series?

[Elias]

Governments pass 100s of laws every year. How many do you suggest we hold a referendum on first? Our society would be unworkable if we had, say, 25 or 50 campaigns and referendums on 25 or 50 different points.



Hi John, your probably right, it wouldnt work in the present. In the future I would like to see an electronic ballot from your Tv/home computer at home where every citizen of voting age would have the opportunity to vote on any number of laws in a given year. A bit like reality TV, except the viewers votes will determine the outcomes of their country

Then a committee representing a cross section of the community can select a leader based on their leadership/national merits

This would be a great model for a future global democracy

[John R. Beanham]

Elias,


"In the future I would like to see an electronic ballot from your Tv/home computer at home where every citizen of voting age would have the opportunity to vote on any number of laws in a given year. A bit like reality TV, except the viewers votes will determine the outcomes of their country"


That STILL circumvents the very idea of elected representatives. And given that EVERY one of these proposals would generate public debate and a 'campaign' by the various supporters and opponents, it would STILL be unworkable. The voting method may be speeded up but that is all and I am sure it would be open to HUGE 'tricks'.



"Then a committee representing a cross section of the community can select a leader (PRESIDENT???) based on their leadership/national merits"

NO Australian voter will EVER trust a 'committee' to do his 'selecting' for him thank you!



"This would be a great model for a future global democracy"

No it would not, and the Australian voters threw out that idea at the 'Republic Referendum', remember?

Voters KNOW when they are being sold a pup.


JB<!-- / message -->

[Elias]

"This would be a great model for a future global democracy"

No it would not, and the Australian voters threw out that idea at the 'Republic Referendum', remember?

Voters KNOW when they are being sold a pup.


Thats why I suggested its a great model for the future. Australia isnt mature enough now to trust their own peoples level of education/understanding of issues pertaining to themselves.

I agree until the Australian public are trained to understand issues effecting their daily lives at school (instead of reading literature books and theoretical physics) then we need elected representatives. I often wonder whther these reps actually understand issues much (take Barnaby Joyce)

[John R. Beanham]

Elias,


"Thats why I suggested its a great model for the future. Australia isnt mature enough now to trust their own peoples level of education/understanding of issues pertaining to themselves.'


Maturity has NOTHING to do with it. it is a matter of having an efficient, WORKABLE, system. The average Australian is a damned sight more 'savvy' than you obviously think. Don't forget, they rejected the socialist ALP at the last 4 elections!



"I agree until the Australian public are trained to understand issues effecting their daily lives at school (instead of reading literature books and theoretical physics) then we need elected representatives.'


They already ARE! The teaching profession, almost to a man or woman, uses every opportunity to brain-wash the kids in their socialist dogma. As I said, the average Aussie KNOWS when he is being sold a pup.


"I often wonder whther these reps actually understand issues much (take Barnaby Joyce)"


Barnaby Joyce is your typical politician, he has achieved the first of his 2 ambitions, he got elected. He now wants to get RE-elected and as he is as cunning as a sh*thouse rat, he is counting the days to the next election. He may well have to fight it as an independent.


JB

<!-- / message -->

[Elias]

They already ARE! The teaching profession, almost to a man or woman, uses every opportunity to brain-wash the kids in their socialist dogma.

Do you expect any sane person to believe that "all" teachers in Australia are spreading socialism? perhaps your referring to the school curriculum, even then your drawing a bit of a long bow.


I went to a private catholic school for 12 years John, and I met quite a few teachers who were more right wing than Genghis Khan!

[John R. Beanham]

Elias,


"Do you expect any sane person to believe that "all" teachers in Australia are spreading socialism? perhaps your referring to the school curriculum, even then your drawing a bit of a long bow.'



I did not say "ALL", I said

" The teaching profession, almost to a man or woman, uses every opportunity to brain-wash the kids in their socialist dogma."

We are now the primary carer for our grand-son, and he goes to a Catholic College here in Victoria. From what he brings home as home-work I can assure you that the teachers are WORSE than they were when his mother went to school. Discussions with his History and English teachers left me in silent rage.
The Teacher Unions are the most radically left wing in Australia! And that includes the CFMEU! How many ex-teachers are ALP MPs?


JB

[Elias]

The teaching profession, almost to a man or woman, uses every opportunity to brain-wash the kids in their socialist dogma."


This sounds close enough to be all?

We are now the primary carer for our grand-son, and he goes to a Catholic College here in Victoria. From what he brings home as home-work I can assure you that the teachers are WORSE than they were when his mother went to school.

John, this might be the case for your grandson's school, your still drawing a long bow

Discussions with his History and English teachers left me in silent rage.


My history teacher was a good bloke, but he was also a member of the tweed jacket, cigar smoking oxford set, very sympathetic to old world values rather than Marx and Trotsky


The Teacher Unions are the most radically left wing in Australia! And that includes the CFMEU! How many ex-teachers are ALP MPs?



Are you also suggesting nurses and police are raving socialists as well? the teachers union is mainly concerned with wage indexation, they believe their members are not paid enough to put up with the stress of teaching and pesky students