A Broken Paradigm and a Dirty Little Secret

[Coot]

The new racism being practiced in this country is not at the hands of white bigots, but rather at the hands of a liberal education system.

In another thread, I posted this link (http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/Stories/0,1413,206%257E22097%257E940581,00.html) to a story about a teacher being suspended for having the audacity to tell the truth about what was going on at his school. Don't go skeptical on me yet, this isn't the racism I am referring to. The African American community went from out and out condemnation of Phelps to becoming galvanized behind him, (http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/Stories/0,1413,206%257E22097%257E960512,00.html) inspite of the stance of "black leadership" on the issue. There is a link to Phelps' email letter that started the furor on that page as well.

There has to be more to this than black kids acting badly and someone having the nerve to point it out. Lo and behold, as I was driving home last night and clicking through radio stations, I happened upon a talk show that was working this story and what happened next floored me. An education student from Cal State Fullerton faxed in a chapter from one of her text books, Sensitizing Teachers to Cultural Differences, by Evelyn Baker Dandy of Armstrong College in Georgia. Mrs. Dandy is an African American woman who may be largely responsible for screwing millions of kids out of an education and assuring that our schools have adequately prepared a large number of young black men for prison.

While I cannot find any appreciable excerpts from the book to quote, I will paraphrase as best I can the content of what was recited. Mrs. Dandy is of the opinion that the behavior of young black males with respect to verbal abuse and physical intimidation of teachers is a rite of passage in the black culture and is to be appreciated as such by teachers and not to be disciplined. Her book goes on to suggest that when these episodes take place, that classroom teaching activities be stopped so that the whole class can appreciate the activity. Her presupposition that black males are somehow unaccountable for these actions is perhaps one of the most dangerous pieces of racism to have found its way into print in probably the last 100 years. The underlying premise is that black males are not capable of following a universal standard of behavior and decorum in a classroom environment.

As bad as this is, her paradigm is being followed in over 50 Urban School systems by administrators and it is what education majors at many of the country's universities are being taught...and that's the dirty little secret.

Obviously, taking that kind of behavior into a work environment gets one quickly shown the door. If this behavior is being reinforced in young black males in our schools, it is no wonder that they are disproportionately populating our prisons.

I believe somewhere in the neighborhood of 70% of African American births are out of wedlock. If there is little or no parenting in the home, then the street culture of the ghetto carries forward. If there is no discipline in many of these homes, and teachers are not allowed to provide it, a whole subset of our society is set up to fail.

To quote from the second link above:
Altadena resident John Wright, a great-grandfather, said the audience at the forum was indicative of the problems in the schools.
"Look around most of the people you see here tonight are grandparents or great-grandparents,' he said. "Where are the parents? They need to quit drinking Hennessey and smoking their weed and come down here.'

Gregor Edwards, mediator for the forum, said the issue is not one of race, it's one of quality of education.

"Some may have you believe that our district is under control,' he said. "We have heard differently.

"When people move into an area, the first question they ask is 'What about the schools?' It's our responsibility (to fix them).'


The short term positive in the Pasadena situation is that Mr. Phelps was reinstated.

It is way past time to take back the schools from the touchy feely Culturally Sensitive agenda and instill the classroom with a Culture of Education, in the strict analytical European style of education where students learned about the Arts and Sciences and where they learned about the consequences of disrespect and misbehavior.

Now that the dirty little secret is out, and at least some of the African American community sees it for what it is and are showing inclination to take their voices back from the likes of Jackson and Sharpton, this may yet turn into something that can galvanize us across race lines and gel into a common sense that is universally accepted. I sure hope the dirty little secret finds its way out of Los Angeles and into the mainstream.

[ethics]

I think you've hit the target regarding how this can be fixed and it SEEMS as if the black community is picking up on it.

The answer is that they need to reject conforming to the "good intentioned" policies laid down by the people who have no idea what they are saying or doing.

By the way, excellent presentation of an issue.

[RRedline]

That was a fascinating read, Coot! I am a product of Pitt's education program, and I had quite a few debates with a few of the more liberal professors. For example, Ebonics was the thing back in the late '90s, and I was and still am vehemently opposed to recognizing it as a structured, correct way to speak and/or write. I'm sorry, but "We're too lazy to learn proper English" is not a damned language, IN MY OPINION.

What is the woman's reasons for suggesting that black children who act out should get positive attention? And what if the white kids act the same way? Should they be treated differently? If so, what happened to MLK's famous speech?

It sounds to me like this lady wants to justify these children's bad behavior and poor attitudes instead of working to correct them. As you've pointed out, what are these young men and women going to do when they get hired? Are they going to act like @ssholes and then sue their employers when they get fired? I'm sure Jesse Jackson and Johnnie Cochran will be waiting.

This really is sad. I hope that Afican Americans will be able to see this PC BS for what it really is and ignore this crazed woman's racist solutions to a very serious problem.

[Coot]

What is perhaps most fascinating about this is that while the African American Community was at first incensed about what the Pasadena teacher did, once many of them read the actual email, they called bullshit on the activists in the community that were calling for this guy's head. Then, once the actual passages from Mrs. Dandy's book were read outloud on the radio, the callers...the African American callers were incensed. I was impressed. While community activists wanted this guy's head, the engaged portion of the black community (whom I thougt would never listen to this right wing station) were preparing to seriously go after the school.

While the African American community may be all too ready to scream racism...even when it isn't warranted, they appear to be just as ready to hold boneheaded administrators accountable for being clueless. IMHO, much of this goes directly back to LBJ's 'Great Society' wherein clueless misguided liberals thought it would be a grand idea to start rewarding black women to have babies out of wedlock, and then to engender entire generations to do the same. If there's no positive male role model, then kids are in trouble.

The white culture is following this same destructive path with regards to kids having access to two parents, or the lack thereof. As belligerant behavior from white kids in schools is not tolerated whatsoever, a case can perhaps be made that incidents of the Columbine nature can be attributed to the repression of white culture. I'm not overly inclined to go there...yet, but it's worth exploring.

Misanthropic white kids shoot up their schools...misanthropic black kids tend to get past school and shoot up other misanthropic black kids.

I'm pretty damned sure that if our schools are actively discouraged from producing said misanthropes, a whole lot of this goes away.

[-Ken]

No Kidding! Wacko liberals?

So, you are saying (and documenting very clearly) there
is incompetence in the educational field? Perhaps if we
lower the pay rate a little more, we can hire better people.

After all, the common Newtism is "Why do you liberals always
think throwing money at a problem will cure it?" To which
I would answer, have you been inside a school recently?

Thanks for pointing out this industry has so obviously
become saturated with Liberals. Of course, only a liberal
would work in a job which doesn't pay enough money to
affford a house in the town you teach in.

Is Mrs. Dandy's ideas crazy? I think so. I also believe
anyone is entitled to express their ideas no matter
how crazy they are (you would expect that to be
important to a guy who has so many crazy ideas).

More to the point, what about the people who listened
to this idea, approved it and implemented the policy in
their school. Shouldn't they be be shown the door?

Maybe, we can replace them with some altruistic
conservatives <i>(talk about an oxymoron)</i> willing to
work for nothing and put up with the crap. It's more
reasonable than expecting them to help pay the bill
for better education.

Great topic Coot.

[pupowski]

Originally posted by -Ken
No Kidding! Wacko liberals?So, you are saying (and documenting very clearly) there
is incompetence in the educational field? Perhaps if we
lower the pay rate a little more, we can hire better people.
Few, if any teachers in the public system are paid as little as teachers in Catholic schools, yet their students, black or otherwise, are among the highest performing academicly. That phenomenon has been consistent for decades, as the salary differential has widened. Catholic schools spend around $3000 per student / year to in my area, public schools around $6400, so your theory appears to be flawed.

As a black poodle, I feel left out, as FLEA-bonics wasn't taught when I was a pup, and growling in the classroom was discouraged. Perhaps a lawsuit is in order to set things right.

[-Ken]

But pup, let's face it, if if the public schools weren't required to educate
every kid that was presented to them (sort of evening the playing field)
we might see similar results in the public schools.

We should expect to see a dramatic rise in a school's ability to teach and
a huge cost savings if the public schools could "throw out" the "bad" kids.

Of course, that doesn't solve the problem of what to do with these kids
who don't fit into the mold.

By the way, I am not commenting on Ebonics and whether or not it should
be taught in schools.

[tke711]

said by –Ken Of course, only a liberal
would work in a job which doesn't pay enough money to
afford a house in the town you teach in.
Everyone always talks about how little teachers make. So, I decided to do a little research to better educate myself on exactly what their average salary is. While doing this research, I stumbled onto a report by the AFL-CIO. The entire report can be found here (http://www.aft.org/research/survey00/salarysurvey00.pdf) (PDF), but here are a couple of highlights.

- The 1999-2000 National Average salary for teachers: $41,820 (page 11)
- The 1999-2000 National Average Starting salary for teachers: $27,989 (page 12)
- Teachers salaries have generally outpaced inflation (page 13)
- Connecticut has the highest average salary at $52,410 (page 17)
- South Dakota has the lowest average salary at $29,072 (page 17)
- In every state, the Average Teachers Salary exceeded the Private Sector Annual earnings. (page 21)
- In every state, the Average Teachers Salary exceeded the Per Capita Personal Income for the state (page 22)

According to this data, teachers do not seem to be as underpaid as everyone would have us believe. Later in the long report, it shows that teachers make less, on average, then several other white-collar professions. However, we have to remember that teachers only work about 8 months a year, while other white-collar jobs don’t have that luxury.

I for one was quite surprised by the actual numbers and though I would share it for others to read.

[Steve]

Coot, thank you for the topic. I was first flabbergasted, then heartened by the response from the community. I am curious about one thing, and I apologize if this is off-topic, but I have a suspicion there is some sort of cause-and-effect relationship:

The gentleman made the comment about only grandparents and great-grandparents being present and then went on to state that the parents should stop getting drunk and high and take an interest in the issues.

These same grandparents raised the children who are now evidently ignoring their responsibilities. I find it hard to believe that good citizens and good parents could be brought up well, completely fail to raise an entire generation, and then pick up with their grandchildren and do a good job.

What happened to that middle generation, those parents who are now in their 30's and 40's? Why did so many of them go wrong, given the clear evidence of positive influences in their lives?

[Misu]

Questions - are there any black teachers in America? Are there any black students learning to be teachers in any of the over 50 Universities the text is being used? Are there any black professors teaching at any of the over 50 Universities that text is being used in? Are there any black professors teaching from this text in any of the over 50 Universities that use this text?

I'm not a black woman, but being of a minority, I am offended at what that text states - it effectively removes all traits of being a civilized human being, and tosses the black male in the same category as early neanderthal man - a being that is usually treated more like an animal than a human.

Rite of passage? So if a hispanic kid or asian kid spit at a teacher, it's bad behavior - but a black kid does it, it's a rite of passage?

And what exactly is she saying about the Black culture as a whole - that it is ACCEPTABLE within the black culture to go around beating and spitting and cussing at people, otherwise how could it be a rite of passage?

I do not believe for 1 second that the black community, if informed of what was being taught, would stand for it. NO WAY. And I am sure there are black students being taught from that text - I am amazed that I haven't heard of this before now.

[Misu]

Originally posted by pupowski
Few, if any teachers in the public system are paid as little as teachers in Catholic schools, yet their students, black or otherwise, are among the highest performing academicly. That phenomenon has been consistent for decades, as the salary differential has widened. Catholic schools spend around $3000 per student / year to in my area, public schools around $6400, so your theory appears to be flawed.


Actually, Pup, your theory is flawed - catholic schools are not required to teach anyone who can pay the $300-$600/month/student tuition fee - the student must first pass a battery of tests, to make sure they can cut the mustard at the school. Only the smarter kids with the $$$$ to pay get into private schools.

If Catholic schools had to take every single child that walked in through their doors, living in their district, they would quickly be overwhelmed and mismanaged, just like public schools. Remember, public schools have to cater to EVERYONE - that includes special-needs childrens, both mentally and physically handicapped - outfitting an entire school to accomdate children with special needs is extremely expensive - I have yet to encounter a private school that caters to mentally challenged children, as those children would NEVER pass the tests required to start school. I have also yet to encounter a private school that accepts children who haven't yet mastered the English language, and must attend ESOL for several months.

Private schools such as Catholic schools have it real comfortable when you factor in atypical kids.

[fritzmp]

First off I think putting kids in school uniforms is a good idea. Remove the class affiliation and let Teachers whack them across the knuckles with a metal edge ruler is OK with me. Sitting in the corner with an Ass-Hole hat works too. Self esteem you say, F that, just who is running the class. Brake them down and build them up.

[Steve]

There have been some interesting studies lately that show that children with behavior, and even legal, problems, are just overflowing with self-esteem.

Seems like it's not a lack of self-esteem that makes children act badly; it's poor upbringing and lack of discipline that do it.

Go figure!

[fritzmp]

The school system has empowered children buy showing fear. Until parents sign an agreement that states, your kid is going to get disciplined and humiliated in sight of his/her/it's pears for class and school disruption, this isn't going to change.

[drslash]

Originally posted by tke711
However, we have to remember that teachers only work about 8 months a year, while other white-collar jobs don’t have that luxury.
I always thought the pay teachers got was pretty good for part time work. ;)

Liberals think more money will solve problems in education. The "Soak the rich" and "The tax cuts were a give a way for the rich" mantra is so old and tired it is pathetic. Liberals have no regard for property rights.

Democrat liberals, show some guts, call for the repeal of the Bush tax cuts so more of these bad teachers and bad school systems can be rewarded.

[Coot]

Actually, the teachers are fairly impotent in all of this. They are strictly prohibited from disciplining, they are held accountable for test scores and top down administrators blame the teachers for being ineffective in impossible classroom situations that are the creation of their own administrative policies.

The kids have learned perfectly how to play the administrator's game. If a white teacher even attempts to chastise a black kid, the kid plays the race card and the administration beats on the teacher for being insensitive.

I think it is not accidental that this particular teacher in Pasadena was the one to kick over the can of worms. He graduated from Cal Tech, which is a far cry from say Cal State Fullerton, which is a predominantly liberal arts school. He was a science major and not an education major and as such wasn't spoon fed this nonsense for 4 or 5 years.

The social decimation of the black community which has resulted in the out of control behavioral problems in the schools can, I'm reasonably certain, be placed square in the lap of the failed social engineering attempts that began in the 60's. Throw money at the problem...pay women to have kids with no father around. Kids grow up in the projects and learn how to behave on the streets. Then along comes someone like Dandy that says this street culture needs to be embraced and that physical threats and initimidation of teachers is a positive thing.

Dollars to donuts, Dandy's whole philosophy came out of someone's study that showed black kids were being disciplined in school at a disproportionate rate to any other ethnic background.

I talked to a fellow this morning whose wife teaches in the LA Unified School District and they actually have racial quotas for the daily disciplining of students by Vice Prinicipals. If there's a fight or some other grossly bad act and the quota for the ethnic background of the kids involved has been reached, they get sent back to class.

[Kangaroo]

Originally posted by -Ken
After all, the common Newtism is "Why do you liberals always
think throwing money at a problem will cure it?"

Let's throw some common sense and brains at the problem. Money without these just makes a huge mess, with fools like Dandy and the current crop of useless administrators.

[-Ken]

Guys,

If you are trying to convince me the school administration is apparently
incompetent, I'm in complete agreement. Any administrator who would
implement these policies needs a reality check.

I'm saying, that's the kind of people we can expect to get if the salaries
in high tech is much higher. For some strange reason, good people tend
to go for the high paying jobs. The problem won't go away without some
serious financial incentives - <i>read more money.</i>

"The kids have learned perfectly how to play the administrator's
game. If a white teacher even attempts to chastise a black kid, the
kid plays the race card and the administration beats on the teacher
for being insensitive."
<small>Let's look on the bright side. At least, we're teaching the kids something they can use later in life!</small>

[ethics]

Originally posted by -Ken
I'm saying, that's the kind of people we can expect to get if the salaries
in high tech is much higher. For some strange reason, good people tend
to go for the high paying jobs. The problem won't go away without some
serious financial incentives -


IT industry sucks something fierce right now. Everyday there are layoffs. My company alone is scaling back on hiring and stepping on the gas peddle to lay people off.


If I am a college student going for IT, I'd rethink that real fast. Suddenly, teaching is a little bit safer as far as stability.

[drslash]

Originally posted by -Ken
I'm saying, that's the kind of people we can expect to get if the salaries
in high tech is much higher. For some strange reason, good people tend
to go for the high paying jobs. The problem won't go away without some
serious financial incentives - <i>read more money.</i>
For some strange reason smart people want these failed schools with failed policies to remain open. Why not let the parents decide where they want their children to go to school - read...school vouchers

[Coot]

Originally posted by -Ken
Guys,

If you are trying to convince me the school administration is apparently
incompetent, I'm in complete agreement. Any administrator who would
implement these policies needs a reality check.

I'm saying, that's the kind of people we can expect to get if the salaries
in high tech is much higher. For some strange reason, good people tend
to go for the high paying jobs. The problem won't go away without some
serious financial incentives - <i>read more money.</i>
Throwing more money into teacher's salaries isn't going to fix bad administration. Administrative positions are extremely political, with the Dandy's and those of her ilk winning out almost exclusively. As these positions already pay well into the 6 figure range for large urban school districts, money isn't going to fix that either...nor is the pontification and 'education' on the part of the soft sciences faction...as has already been demonstrated.

[pupowski]

Originally posted by Misu
Actually, Pup, your theory is flawed - catholic schools are not required to teach anyone who can pay the $300-$600/month/student tuition fee - the student must first pass a battery of tests, to make sure they can cut the mustard at the school. Only the smarter kids with the $$$$ to pay get into private schools. Don't declare victory yet Misu, because your premise is questionable as well. Frankly, it has the tired ring of similar excuses educators have been hiding behind for years.

Catholic families normally send all their kids to Catholic School, not just the brightest. Admission is not by test scores, other factors apply, including what parish the parents attend, and if siblings are enrolled. Demographics of the Catholic schools I attended are similar to public high schools in the area. That is fairly typical across the US and Canada. I know children with Autism attending Catholic schools in my area and Canada. They get some accommodations, but are generally expected to keep up with their class.

Public schools, on the other hand, often slow the better students for fear of hurting the slow student's self esteem, or to practice "diversity". The % of intellectually or physicly challenged special needs students is small, and does not explain the disparity in outcomes. The % challenged by bad attitudes, appears to be the greater factor, by far. Higher salaries for teachers don't improve student attitudes, discipline, measurable performance standards, peer pressure, and community values do that.

[Techie2000]

Okay first of all what was the author of that book smoking when it was being written? I know lots of good people in my school of all races including African-American. I don't remember them screaming at teachers or anything. Then I know bad kids of all races. they talk back to teachers all the time. They only stop when threatened with suspension or office detention, sometimes they don't care about that either. It's not about the races. It's about the parents and how the kids were raised.

As far as the schools go, I think one of the biggest problems we have is tenure. Once a teacher gets into a school system they get 3 years of "danger" where they have to act good if they want to get tenure, then as long as they do nothing illegal they teach until retirment. If you are lucky and have a good guidance counselor (I do), you can get switched out of these classes. However we need to remove tenure and get rid of the bad teachers that aren't effective at educating, and are unable to control the kids or are mentally unstable. I have one teacher who I swear has bi-polar or something like, the class isn't that fun. Second step is we need to scale back on tests. No longer is it about the three R's or the arts, but about getting the highest possible score on standardized test XYZ so everyone can get their raises and bonuses while the school gets to pat itself on the back. In fact I feel that a teacher needs only to give quizzes, plus a mid-term and final to make sure that the students know the material. If a student is dedicated (s)he will go to the teacher for extra help or whatever. In fact I believe that classroom time be reduced, and that there be time at the end of the day (basically a school wide study hall) where students can go for extra help in subjects that the teachers have determined that they are weak in. Sure you could go after school, but many kids are involved in clubs or sports which they feel are more important then their education, and having a period dedicated to helping students with weak subjects would probably raise the quality of education the student recieves.

As far as the school uniform goes, I do not feel that the <i>extreme</i> step of a school uniform needs to be implemented, however a dress code does. We do not need to see women in bras and their thongs all day (although I know most males would be unopposed to seeing this;)) and men in their underwear.

[RRedline]

Originally posted by pupowski
Few, if any teachers in the public system are paid as little as teachers in Catholic schools, yet their students, black or otherwise, are among the highest performing academicly. That phenomenon has been consistent for decades, as the salary differential has widened. Catholic schools spend around $3000 per student / year to in my area, public schools around $6400, so your theory appears to be flawed. However, I am willing to bet that if you replaced all of the Catholic school students with a random sampling of the current public school students, suddenly the Catholic schools would not be doing better. Let's face it, it is not the administration or the teachers that make Catholic school students better academically - it is the parents of those students. Why would anyone pay extra money to send their children to private schools unless they actually CARED ABOUT and VALUED their children's education? Catholic schools generally do not need to deal with the children who have the worst behavioral problems and who are the most academically challenged.

I'm sorry, but as a former teacher and someone who knows more than the average person does about the current situation in our schools, I will have words with anyone who says that Catholic schools are "better" than public ones. On the contrary, only people who value education send their children to Catholic schools. The students are expected to do well, so they generally do. Public schools, on the other hand, get children from all types of parents, including the ones who don't give a flying FUCK about their kids, let alone their kids' education.

[RRedline]

Originally posted by tke711
Everyone always talks about how little teachers make. So, I decided to do a little research to better educate myself on exactly what their average salary is. While doing this research, I stumbled onto a report by the AFL-CIO. The entire report can be found here (http://www.aft.org/research/survey00/salarysurvey00.pdf) (PDF), but here are a couple of highlights.

- The 1999-2000 National Average salary for teachers: $41,820 (page 11)
- The 1999-2000 National Average Starting salary for teachers: $27,989 (page 12)
- Teachers salaries have generally outpaced inflation (page 13)
- Connecticut has the highest average salary at $52,410 (page 17)
- South Dakota has the lowest average salary at $29,072 (page 17)
- In every state, the Average Teachers Salary exceeded the Private Sector Annual earnings. (page 21)
- In every state, the Average Teachers Salary exceeded the Per Capita Personal Income for the state (page 22)

According to this data, teachers do not seem to be as underpaid as everyone would have us believe. Later in the long report, it shows that teachers make less, on average, then several other white-collar professions. However, we have to remember that teachers only work about 8 months a year, while other white-collar jobs don’t have that luxury.

I for one was quite surprised by the actual numbers and though I would share it for others to read. Thank you very much for saving me the research, tke! It is "common knowledge" that teachers are poorly paid, but this is one of the biggest lies you will ever hear from most teachers. Are there teachers who are not paid well enough? ABSOLUTELY! Any decent teacher(even first year ones) earning less than $30,000 per year is underpaid, in my opinion. However, the majority of public school teachers earn much, much more than that. Last I heard, the average teacher salary here in Pennsylvania is around $48,000 per year.

Teachers certainly were much worse off back in the early '80s, but times have changed. Next time you hear a teacher whining about their pathetic salary, vacation and benefits, ask them how bad they actually have it. Chances are, most people will tell them to get over it. After all, the median salary in the USA is somewhere in the mid 30K range. Why do so many teachers compare their salaries to those of doctors and lawyers? Honestly, many teachers are delusional when it comes to this.

My salary increases are based on merit - not some lame ass scale. I can't force my employer to give me and my coworkers raises simply by walking out and striking, and I don't have "tenure" or a union to protect me when I step out of line with my employer. I don't have summers off, and I don't get a Spring break or a Fall break. Things have only gotten better for teachers in proportion to other professions, and I feel that salaries are, on average, very fair for them. I understand that there are states where this is not generally true, especially southern states and poor South Dakota. :)

In my opinion, the most important change that needs to occur in order to improve public education, is to give administrators more power and force them to grow a spine when it comes to dealing with parents. It is the attitudes learned from bad parents and later brought into the schools by children that is ruining our education system. If a student does poorly, he gets an "F." If a student cheats, he gets an "F." If he gets a whole collection of F's, he doesn't play in the big disctrict finals football game agains the school's biggest rival(I was once forced to pass a student so that he could play football), and he certainly doesn't get passed along to the next grade. If he tells teachers, "Fuck you!" and constantly disrupts classes, he gets kicked out of school. If Suzie doesn't understand what a sentence fragment is, maybe she shouldn't be in AP English? Am I wrong for suggesting these things?

Anyone who thinks money alone will solve our public education problem needs a reality check. If Bill Clinton didn't prove this, then Al Gore must have really invented the Internet.

[RRedline]

Originally posted by ethics
If I am a college student going for IT, I'd rethink that real fast. Suddenly, teaching is a little bit safer as far as stability. That is an understatement, ethics! Teachers have tenure, they have a union, they have wonderful benefits and vacations, and they are guaranteed pay raises each year, regardless of merit.

I do not lose sleep at night worrying that publc school teachers are going hungry.

[RRedline]

Originally posted by drslash
For some strange reason smart people want these failed schools with failed policies to remain open. Why not let the parents decide where they want their children to go to school - read...school vouchers And what if everyone wants to go to the same school because it is "better" than the others? Who decides who gets in and who doesn't? Who provides the chaotic transportation? What if people start resegregating themselves? I don't have the answers...just pointing out potential problems I see with vouchers.

I stand by my earlier statement that it is the students who make the schools shit. Parents make their kids shit, and the kids make their schools shit. Some of our schools may in fact be failing, but I think the bigger problem is that our parents are failing.

[ethics]

Whoa! 41K a year on average with all those days off!??!!?

[Ugly]

What are the salaries when adjusted to a full-time schedule?

[ethics]

Originally posted by Ugly
What are the salaries when adjusted to a full-time schedule?

Don't know, perhaps someone could calculate that in, Ugly. :)

[RRedline]

Originally posted by Ugly
What are the salaries when adjusted to a full-time schedule? $41,000 x 4/3 = $54,667.

[-Ken]

Let's see, so if both husband and wife teach making the average
salary they would gross roughly $110K/year. Sounds like a lot of
money.

In the Boston suburbs, they would not qualify to own a home. In
fact, in most of the communities around Boston, they can't afford
to rent a home.

Two professional people, working full time, cant' afford to rent a
home in the town they teach in? Hey, yes that sounds fair.

But forget the teachers, let's talk administrators. Yes, their salaries
do range into the low six figures. This is with a masters or perhaps
a doctorate and several years in the field.

Of course, the same level of education and experience would pay
off much better in just about any field.

Let's talk facilities, been inside many schools lately? You might be
surprised to know, they look pretty much like they did when I went
to school 30+ years ago. They still use chalk, just like they did in the
1890's. Computers? One or maybe two computer in each classroom
and very little understanding as to how to use them.

Internet connectivity? Cut me a break, half of the schools are afraid
of porn and most of the rest wouldn't know how to use the net if it
was a life and death scenario.

Let's look at the numbers quoted by pupowski. He says they spend
$6,400/year per student for public schools . My first grade math tells
me it will take ten students to pay for one teacher including benefits.
Now we need someone to have these classes in and a library, cafeteria,
administration, books and probably 1000s of things I won't name here.

At $6,400/student, I guess we are looking to keep the class size
to that optimum 30 to one ration.

No, money certainly won't help the problem.
It’s “revenge of the "C" grade students.”
We all deserve to get what we pay for!

[ethics]

Originally posted by -Ken
Let's see, so if both husband and wife teach making the average
salary they would gross roughly $110K/year. Sounds like a lot of
money.

In the Boston suburbs, they would not qualify to own a home. In
fact, in most of the communities around Boston, they can't afford
to rent a home.


Sounds extreme. They would be able to even rent out an apartment in Manhattan out of all places with that type of income.

[Coot]

Ken, rather than quote your entire post, I'll respond to a number of items here. $110K a year will buy you a house in Southern California, which has the highest median priced housing in the country...about $336K.

Administrators, as I pointed out, are largely political positions...at least here. If a school board decides it's time to replace the top administrative position many of the other staff administrative positions are on the block also as a new top administrator is free to replace staff as he or she sees fit. The issue here, and this the key log if you will, is scatalogical nonsense these people are doing their graduate work in. They then bring it into the administration of our schools. Pay is not the issue here. An engineer with a Master's and a Professional Engineering License makes about $120k per year unless he chooses to start up his own engineering firm.

Facilities are a huge issue on the left coast. That is where money is sorely needed. However, planning for schools never envisioned that over 20% of the K-12 student population are from illegals. The money to pay for schools here comes from property taxes paid by homeowners and companies. Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of large corporations don't employ illegals, it's the small service companies that do it...and by and large these small service companies are usually owned by citizen hispanics.

That $6400 per student that has been cited as well as the student/teacher ratio and the facilities goes quite a bit farther if we stop giving away the farm.

[-Ken]

While you may be able to rent an apartment in Manhattan if you were teaching
in suburban Boston and you needed a three bedroom house to raise your family,
you would expect to pay roughly $2,000/month.

While there are some less expensive homes listed here (http://realestate.boston.com/apartments/results.html?searchtype=renting&nav=%2Fapartments%2Findex1.html&category=houses4rent&tab=houses4rent&location=&min_price=0&max_price=333333333&bedrooms=3&text=), they are few and probably
are either the exceptions or have something wrong with them.

Back to the numbers, shall we?

$110K/year - Gross
$ 84K/year - Net?

$ 24K/rent
$ 6K/utilities
$ 8K/automobile
$ 46K for all else?

Daycare will set you back a big portion of what is left.

Coot,

Houses where I was raised start at $500K needing work. In one of the neighboring
towns, houses start at $700K. I don't think too many new teachers are buying homes
there (http://realestate.boston.com/homes/results.html?searchtype=buying&nav=%2Fhomes%2F&category=homes&property_type=&location=weston&min_price=&max_price=&bedrooms=&fullbaths=&text=).

Please understand, I am not suggesting entry level teachers should be paid
enough to buy a home in the most exclusive neighborhoods but rather the
need to evaluate what a "decent professional wage" needs to be.

Regarding administrators, in order to achieve the excellence in education I
believe we all support, we will need some of the best people working on
this problem. I would like to think our elite would take on this problem
(since they have achieved financial success) but the politics is enough
to keep anyone from wanting to touch this.

Who in their right mind would take on the continuing conflict of educating
kids with the bullshit which goes along with it.

Should we teach evolution, creationism? How about sex education? Just
as our smartest are smart enough to stay out of politics, they know a
thankless job when they see one.

Personally, I can't blame them.

[ethics]

Whoa!

Why the high standards, Ken. I've never had more than 2 bedrooms and it was more than enough to raise my family.

[jamming]

Yes, but you are a talented American Immigrant fleeing the tyranny of a communist system ;)

Whereas Ken is so close to Canada that they need three bedrooms to live. One is for the Pet Cow.

[-Ken]

Ethics,

For the example cited, let's assume our ficticious couple have a teenage
son and a teenage daughter. It is traditional in Bible Belt America to give
them separate bedrooms.

Jim,

I will have to ask you to stop making fun of my family! Bovine or not, we
love her! To further add insult to injury, I think she votes Republican!

[ethics]

Originally posted by -Ken
[B]Ethics,

For the example cited, let's assume our ficticious couple have a teenage
son and a teenage daughter. It is traditional in Bible Belt America to give
them separate bedrooms.


Boston is part of the Bible belt?

I grew up in a home sharing a bedroom with my brother throughout my child and teenage life. It was actually fun, minus a few fights.

[fritzmp]

That is so funny. Todays eductors like approaching problems that they cause like spelling out incantations over the cauldron of ignorance. Eye of newt and bucket of money.

After my fathers illustrious 26 years of service to our country he went and got his Masters and teaching credentials and worked for the San Francisco Public School System for 16 years as a High School Teacher. Never was a man so deionized for his beliefs and attention on teaching children. He was accused of militarizing students because he used topographical maps and gave kids artillery equations to real world use of math and algebra.

He never complained about the pay and told the AFT to shove it ware the sun don't shine. His feeling is that people like this have no business teaching children anything. Their corrector and concern stops at their pay check.

[-Ken]

No Ethics, with all it's charms, Boston (while traditionally very prudish) is not
part of the Bible Belt. When I lived in the Boston area, it was not acceptable
to have teenage boys and girls living in the same room.

Of course, I getting older now and I don't live in the Boston area anymore so
I'm not sure what all the cool people are doing now.

[Sierra Mike]

I worked in the Boston area a couple of days a week from 11/2000-1/2002...it is an odd place, but the sights on Mulberry Street in summertime are incredible.

Unfortunately, I don't know what the "cool" people do there either, and if I did, I'm fairly certain I would disapprove.

SM

[RRedline]

Originally posted by ethics
Whoa!

Why the high standards, Ken. I've never had more than 2 bedrooms and it was more than enough to raise my family. Because they're TEACHERS! They went to college for FOUR WHOLE years so they deserve the same salaries as surgeons and lawyers and CEO's.

Teachers are so full of themselves these days. Hey Ken, if you know any "struggling" teachers up there, please tell them to apply to PA schools. $41K can go a long way here in central PA. Trust me...I know. I have several friends who are teachers, and they drive BMW's and Audi's. Too damned bad if the doctors drive Vettes and Mercedes'. THEY ARE DOCTORS. If you want to be very wealthy, then don't go to school to be a teacher. Be a doctor.

Ken went on and on about how $100K+ for a family isn't much in Boston, but what about all the other people in other professions living in Boston? Does every homeowner in the Boston area earn a six figure salary? Please, someone explain to me WHY teachers are worth more than the median salary in this country? I assure you, it is not difficult to get a teaching degree. I know math teachers whom I wouldn't trust to teach my kids(if I had any) what a decimal point is. Yes, I know there are a lot of responsibilities, but police officers and accountants have responsibilities too. Why do teachers deserve more than accounts? I'm not saying they don't...I just want to know why so many teachers piss and moan about how "bad" they have it. IF YOU WANT LOTS OF MONEY, DON'T BE A DAMNED TEACHER. If you want to teach and could settle for a BMW or an Audi, then go for it. (Yes, I know they are not as nice as the lawyer guy's Porsche up the road, but they WILL get you from pojnt A to point B.)

[Steve]

One bad parent can fuck up one kid for the rest of his life.

One bad teacher can fuck up innumerable childrend during the teacher's entire career, for the rest of the kids' lives.

Good money draws good people, but also implies other money is available for ensuring accreditation, decent facilities, and teachers who genuinely care about educating children...especially since so many parents these days seem to have abrograted their responsibility in that area.

Why do the teachers deserve good pay?

So our society doesn't fall apart. Anyone who can't understand that should go back to school.

[ethics]

Originally posted by RRedline
Teachers are so full of themselves these days. Hey Ken, if you know any "struggling" teachers up there, please tell them to apply to PA schools. $41K can go a long way here in central PA. Trust me...I know. I have several friends who are teachers, and they drive BMW's and Audi's. Too damned bad if the doctors drive Vettes and Mercedes'. THEY ARE DOCTORS. If you want to be very wealthy, then don't go to school to be a teacher. Be a doctor.


Thanks to MyWay (thanks to Stevent mostly) I was able to customize this portal in order to catch the issue reported today in NY Times:

Around Boston, where house prices have doubled in the last five years, a family making the local median income of $61,000 can afford the monthly payments on a house worth only half the median price of $395,000. This is true even though the annual interest rate on a typical mortgage fell to a four-decade low last month, before inching back above 6 percent. In the mid-1990's, a median income allowed the purchase of nearly a median-priced house, according to Economy.com, a consulting firm in West Chester, Pa.



The story is not about teachers, however, not sure why Ken picked Boston to make his point but...

See a good article here. (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/04/business/04REAL.html?ex=1037077200&en=a56d8a07aa45090c&ei=5065&partner=MYWAY)

[Jedi Writer]

Originally posted by tke711
According to this data, teachers do not seem to be as underpaid as everyone would have us believe. Coincidently I knew what you so accurately communicated in your post.

Also, in terms of education I never really thought of teachers and the formal part of the education process as being liberal or conservative--just overall terrible and inadequate with the quality of teachers diminishing as you go UP the academic ladder with the worse teachers being at the University level and the best teachers at the elementary grades. (Speaking generally.)

As for the conservative or liberal influence I only really think of that as being <i>generally</i> abusive at the University or college level with the bias manifesting itself in double standards, PC, and supression of free speech.