Northern Ireland's Yasser Arafat

[Stiofán]

Anyone who's even remotely aware of Northern Ireland's turmoil knows they have been trying to stop the violence for over a century or more.

Over the last ten years or so there has been hope they will finally get somewhere, but many in Britain have complained that they have to negotiate with Sinn Fein and it's leader, Gerry Adams, who they claim is a terrorist himself. Having really no alternative, they've done so hoping for the best. Now with this latest Revelation about the IRA's criminal activity and Adam's knowledge (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42389-2005Feb21.html) of it, I'm wondering if he is no better than Arafat was for the Palestinians. Is it time for him to leave as well?

[John R. Beanham]

Stiofan


"Northern Ireland's Yasser Arafat"


Without a doubt and just as deadly too. As with Yassah Arafat, I doubt that anything happens without it passing his desk and bears his initials on it.
John.

[Domh]

Where else in the world is one modern civilized nation occupying another modern civilized nation by force of arms for no reason but egoistic hegemonics? Can anybody offer a good reason why England truly needs to occupy Northern Ireland?

There is only one solution to the conflict in Northern Ireland. The English must immediately and without condition pack up and get the hell out of Ireland leaving behind only a hearty apology and a mass of cash to aid the Irish in effecting positive national unification by way of reparations for centuries of brutality and oppression against an innocent people.

Let me check my calendar... yup - its not the 1400s.

Its all about religion? I am sorry, but IMHO the Protestants can fuck themselves. Ireland is a Catholic nation, England is a Protestant nation. The presence of the English under the auspices of 'protecting the Orange from oppression' is specious at best in this day and age and operates now as a terribly effective excuse to maintain a colonistic stronghold in a neighboring country. Frankly it sounds like the sort of thing the Queen insisted on... Im sorry I should say 'upon which the Queen insists'. I think that the occupation of Ireland is more to protect Englands historical pride than it is to protect the Orange.

Get out England. Give it back. The wound is long healed - let the pain of removing the bandage be done with. The longer it stays on, the more the wound festers.

[ethics]

I have to agree with Domh here. The facade of being there to "protect" the Protestants is under the same file cabinet as Russia needing troops in Latvia to protect their Russian populace.

Both countries are civilized and have human right laws. I seriously doubt that each nation (just to name two) would allow anything to happen to their minority.

[Stiofán]

Except my post wasn't about Catholics and Protestants, now was it? John's the only one to answer my question.

You guys sound like fucking Wahabis in Saudi Arabia (excuse my choice of adjectives). This is a Catholic country and Britain is Protestant and we're going to kick their asses out or kill the blighters. What kind of bullshit is that in the year 2005, and how does it relate to Gerry Adams and his being the problem instead of helping to solve it? By the way, when I was in Ireland, they didn't want the north and it's problems, realizing that if they got it the problems would continue and they'd have to deal with it.

It's like I'm reading Basio's latest post here about how the Palestinians and Arafat have been just misunderstood all these years.

[ethics]

LOL! Wow... Take a deep breath dude and stop the caffeine IV.

I certainly did not mean that Adams gets a carte blanche. I don't condone terrorism no matter which country under whatever guise. I don't think Domh's rant was saying that you misunderstand that terrorism.

You need to stop reading too much in to posts or at the very least ask for clarification, elaboration.

[Stiofán]

What, did I piss you off? :lol:

[Cariad]

Adams is and always will be a smarmy little git. Beats me why it's taken so long for some to actually acknowledge he's a terrorist. Let's just hope some idiot doesn't nominate him for a Nobel peace prize. What a joke.

As far as the British leaving NI - bah, don't see how they'd survive. Southern Island don't want them, and while we're on the subject, neither do biggest part of the British public.

[Domh]

This is a Catholic country and Britain is Protestant and we're going to kick their asses out or kill the blighters. What kind of bullshit is that in the year 2005, and how does it relate to Gerry Adams and his being the problem instead of helping to solve it? By the way, when I was in Ireland, they didn't want the north and it's problems, realizing that if they got it the problems would continue and they'd have to deal with it.

What kind of bullshit indeed! Its the kind of bullshit that has spawned Adams and its the kind of bullshit that needs to be addressed if the conflict is to see resolution. Whether or not Adams is good, bad, indifferent or 'like Arafat' is totally irrelevant to the topic. Sure, that was the first post and I decided to take a surficial topic and explore the more interesting underlying reasons.

Ireland is a partially occupied country. This isnt a good thing, and just because the Green 'doesnt care to deal with it' doesnt give the English Carte Blanche to continue with their occupation. The sooner the Irish get off their asses and get to work dealing with the problem on their own, the sooner it will be solved for good.

The English occupation is prolonging the conflict, not Adams. These are not crazed Muslims in 3rd world nations, they are educated literates in a first world economic power.

Adams is NOT the problem, England IS. The English need to get the fuck out of Ireland so that Ireland can clean its own house.

[Stiofán]

I've been called a lot worse than a "surficial" posting dude so I take it I'm getting off light. http://www.hosting-unlimited.net/forums/images/smilies/worship.gif

Honestly, I could care less about greens and the oranges. My life is so far removed from their ignorant BS I could care less at this point whether they blow themselves all up or not. First world ignorance perhaps, but I see it as ignorance none the less. I do note certain parallels with Sinn Fein and the Palestinian Authority to the Provisional IRA and Fatah. No matter how much the Brits compromised there will never be much progress as long as those criminal elements like Adams and McGuinness are running the show. To be sure, I have some empathy for the average Palestinian who's had their future raped from them by those with a vested interest in violence, but I also wonder why they continue to put their faith (do they even have a choice?) in leaders such as Arafat. And now I wonder the same about the Northern Irish.

Should the Brits have gotten out 30 years ago, yeah probably. But they didn't and so now the republicans rest their hopes on a bunch of criminal swine and the unionists rest theirs on an occupying force from across the sea. You'd think they both could see the light, that this is no way to live.

[ethics]

What if you remove the fringe IRA element. Would the English take getting out of Ireland more seriously?

On a separate note, why is English occupying NI such a horrible thing other than nationalism (genuine question)?

[John R. Beanham]

Cariad,


"Adams is and always will be a smarmy little git. Beats me why it's taken so long for some to actually acknowledge he's a terrorist."

Adams knows he is a terrorist, the IRA knows he is a terrorist, the British Government knows he is a terrorist, the whole damned world knows he is a terrorist. Even the Republic of Ireland knows he is a terrorist.


"Let's just hope some idiot doesn't nominate him for a Nobel peace prize. What a joke."


Don't laugh it will probably happen.



"As far as the British leaving NI - bah, don't see how they'd survive. Southern Island don't want them, and while we're on the subject, neither do biggest part of the British public."


Catholic Northern Ireland is absolutely determined to become part of The Republic.
Protestant Northern Ireland is absolutely determined that it will not.
All parties KNOW that very soon after the last British soldier leaves Northern Ireland, the issue wil be settled, one way or the other, in a bloodbath.
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

JMNHO


John.

[Cariad]

Adams is NOT the problem, England IS. The English need to get the fuck out of Ireland so that Ireland can clean its own house.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.............. Adam's is part of a terrorist organization, just like bin laden. Can't get their own way, don't agree with the way things are going, they blow things up - innocent people. In the US it was 9/11 in the Uk, ooooh, I dunno, pick a bombing, there were plenty.



You only want the English to leave NI, what about the Welsh, or the Scottish?

[ethics]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.............. Adam's is part of a terrorist organization, just like bin laden. Can't get their own way, don't agree with the way things are going, they blow things up - innocent people. In the US it was 9/11 in the Uk, ooooh, I dunno, pick a bombing, there were plenty.



You only want the English to leave NI, what about the Welsh, or the Scottish?


Agreed and I will repeat my mantra, no terrorism is justified, none.

[Domh]

Adam's is part of a terrorist organization, just like bin laden. In the US it was 9/11 in the Uk, ooooh, I dunno, pick a bombing, there were plenty.

You only want the English to leave NI, what about the Welsh, or the Scottish?

Thats some funny stuff! Comparing Adams to BinLaden is like comparing Dahmer to PolPot.

If the UK had a terrorist bombing WITHIN ENGLAND that was as brutal as 9/11, well - you might be able to actually name it.

As for the Welsh and Scottish leaving Ireland - you may have failed to notice that the Welsh and Scottish are not occupying a section of Ireland under force of arms.

Its very clear that many people have zero idea what is going on in NI. I sometimes wonder if Chinas brutal oppression and occupation of Tibet, half a world away, is more familiar than the occupation of a land that is the ancestral home to so many of us in America.

Hate to use this one, but...

:rolleyes:

[Biker]

Bull. Adams is a terrorist and should be treated no differently than bin Laden regardless of the numbers killed.

[Cariad]

Thats some funny stuff! Comparing Adams to BinLaden is like comparing Dahmer to PolPot.

If the UK had a terrorist bombing WITHIN ENGLAND that was as brutal as 9/11, well - you might be able to actually name it.




Oh, I see what you're saying, bombing civilians is ok as long as it's not on the same scale as 9/11. gottcha.


As for the Welsh and Scottish leaving Ireland - you may have failed to notice that the Welsh and Scottish are not occupying a section of Ireland under force of arms.

Its very clear that many people have zero idea what is going on in NI. I sometimes wonder if Chinas brutal oppression and occupation of Tibet, half a world away, is more familiar than the occupation of a land that is the ancestral home to so many of us in America.

Hate to use this one, but...

:rolleyes:

No dear, you failed to notice my disdain for those who refer to England as a country. ENGLAND IS NOT THE COUNTRY! England is part of the United Kingdom, or Briton, or Great Britain. The UK consists of England, Wales, Scotland and Nr Ireland. Think of them as States within a country if you like, whatever make it easier for you to grasp. I don't refer to the US as Texas now do I? That would be silly of me, not to mention ill informed, I know that the US is made up of a bunch of states

There are people from England, Nr Ireland, Wales and Scotland, serving in the British Armed forces. Hence my humorous/sarcastic comment...

You only want the English to leave NI, what about the Welsh, or the Scottish?

Right back at you with the :rolleyes:


Brighton bombing (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/301223.stm)

Manchester bombing (http://www.manchester2002-uk.com/buildings/bombing.html)

Warrington Bombing (http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/northwest/series2/warrington_bomb_terroism_post_traumatic_stress.shtml)

Birmingham Bombing (http://www.birminghamuk.com/wikipedia/Birmingham_pub_bombing.htm)

To name but a few, sorry the loss of life doesn't match up to the large scale slaughter in the US to bring a tear to your eye and sympathy for the families who lost loved ones.

Irks me when Americans who were born in the States(as were their parents and sometimes grandparents - like my hubby) claim to be Irish having never set foot in the country (not particularly talking about you, don't know your background). Those who cling onto the "Irish heritage" like being American isn't enough to sustain life.

[MNeedham73]

You make it look like the IRA has been the only side going around killing innocents.

[Domh]

You make it look like the IRA has been the only side going around killing innocents.

Well thats right isnt it? Those dirty IRA and their brothers-in-arms Al Qaeda.

I encourage those who are for some reason sympathetic to the ENGLISH occupation of NI (much like the ENGLISH occupation of Scotland, a battle long since given up because it was won with sex) to spend some time looking into the deeper history of those 2 Islands NW of France and the peoples which founded them and occupy them still.

Have a look into the history of the Potato Famine and notice how the English stood by to watch the Irish die. Look into Prima Nochta and how the English literally fucked the Scottish in submission by state mandated and protected rape.

I do not condone the tactics of the IRA in any way whatsoever. I deplore them, but I also do not live in a black and white world and can recognize and discuss the differences between peoples and conflicts without resorting to jingoistic tripe spoon fed from the MSM telling us precisely what is and what is not 'terror'.

The United Kingdom consisting of England Wales Scotland and NI is not England for one reason only - because the ENGLISH conquered the Islands, all except for Ireland. Why not Irelands? BECAUSE THEY COULDNT DO IT.

This sticks in the craw of ENGLAND to this day, and it always will. The days when it could conquer Ireland and finally fulfill its Millenia-old aspirations of finally ruling over a truly United Kingdom are long gone. The North of Ireland will have to suffice to satiate the ego's of dead rulers and their living progeny who care much more about Cricket, thank God for that, than they do about conquest.

Its about tradition and honor and the blood of the Tuatha De Dannan. If you dont understand that and think its about that dirty terrorist Adams, you dont - know - anything.

http://www.globalaffairs.org/forum/images/smilies/doh.gif

[Cariad]

You make it look like the IRA has been the only side going around killing innocents.
Well we were talking about Adams and he being a terrorist were we not? I didn't think the thread was about what happened a couple of hundred years ago, and the big bad British.

[MNeedham73]

Well we were talking about Adams and he being a terrorist were we not? I didn't think the thread was about what happened a couple of hundred years ago, and the big bad British.

Bloody Sunday (http://larkspirit.com/bloodysunday/) (Jan. 30, 1972) was hardly a couple hundred years ago.

And Domh, from everything I've read so far, Scotland is getting closer and closer to being independent again.

And in Wales, there is a small, but increasing, minority that wants the same.

[Techie2000]

So we have all this killing, bombings, and shootings because two sides want to enlarge their collective penii by controlling a plot of land? That's just dumb. Honor, tradition, blood whatever it doesn't matter. This is 2005. Terrorism is not acceptable, and unless they stop it they won't be looked upon as wanting some sort of serious resolution.

And not that it matters, but I'm half-irish, woo.

[Steve]

Let's keep it civil and impersonal, folks.

[Domh]

Well we were talking about Adams and he being a terrorist were we not? I didn't think the thread was about what happened a couple of hundred years ago, and the big bad British.

True that. I am not trying to thread hijack, I am just pointing out that to look at the current and long standing conflict in NI as simply a matter of some Terrorist group making life miserable for the good folks about town is a vast oversimplification of a terribly complex and literally ancient conflict.

It really is about the big bad British, frankly, and it really is about history and what has happened over time leading to this moment.

The English brutalized their neighbors so badly it is almost impossible to fully comprehend. The Irish are some of the toughest and most resilient people in the world. In todays realtively modern world, with the English occupying a small bit of Ireland, well - its a BAD situation that nobody is making any better - not the IRA and certainly not Her Majesty.

Northern Irelands Yasser Arafat? My good God no. The 2 situations are do drastically different in so many ways that comparison is really quite a stretch.

Does Adams need to take a different approach? Most certainly yes he does.

[Cariad]

And in Wales, there is a small, but increasing, minority that wants the same.

Speaking as a welsh person it's more than a minority.


There's a Welsh assembly much the same as a Scottish assembly, but they can only govern so much. They can't do everything without the approval of the main government in Westminster.

Neither Wales nor Scotland are even close to becoming totally independent. That's like saying NY is almost independent of the US because it has it's own governor, and senator.

They have a voice in London is all. Wales certainly can't afford to be independent from anyone.


I'm done, this thread has totally strayed, my apologies for my part.

[MNeedham73]

Speaking as a welsh person it's more than a minority.

My apologies. The article (http://www.politics.co.uk/issues/welsh-independence-$2413597.htm) I read stated that a poll taken in 2003 showed that 13.9% favored independence.

[Cariad]

My apologies. The article (http://www.politics.co.uk/issues/welsh-independence-$2413597.htm) I read stated that a poll taken in 2003 showed that 13.9% favored independence.

I don't like polls, more often than not their inaccurate.

[John R. Beanham]

Domh,



"It really is about the big bad British, frankly, and it really is about history and what has happened over time leading to this moment.
The English brutalized their neighbors so badly it is almost impossible to fully comprehend."



I certainly have to agree with that. Over the centuries the British managed to subjugate the Scots and the Irish in particular, terribly, not unlike the way the Americans did to the 'Indians'.

That is not to criticise the Americans, it is simply a fact of history, but to illustrate that the British and Americans were determined to end up as the dominant power on their island/continent/patch. The 'Indians' were doomed much the same as the Scots and Irish were doomed.

Nevertheless the British DID treat their victims terribly as their disinterest during the Irish Famine illustrates. I have no knowledge of the British herding the survivors into reservations though.

I have no doubt that the British would LOVE to walk away from Northern Ireland but the result of that would be a blood-bath.



John.

[Stiofán]

Northern Irelands Yasser Arafat? My good God no. The 2 situations are do drastically different in so many ways that comparison is really quite a stretch.

Does Adams need to take a different approach? Most certainly yes he does.

My post wasn't about the potato famine or Englands sorted history with it's neighbors. This last you've posted is my question. Why do you think Adams is not like Arafat? Simply because you think the PLO is not like the IRA? Not good enough. Tell us how he's not the problem. It seems like you didn't read the link so let me post the first two paragraphs...

BELFAST, Feb. 21 -- The decade-long peace process in Northern Ireland has been built in part on the tacit agreement of its main sponsors, the British and Irish governments, to ignore the link between Sinn Fein, the legal political party representing a majority of the province's Catholics, and the outlawed Irish Republican Army.

But the theft of more than $45 million from a bank here in December, which police blame on the paramilitary IRA, has shattered that understanding. On Monday, Ireland's highest-ranking law enforcement official, Justice Minister Michael McDowell, declared for a second day running that Sinn Fein's political leaders were also the top leaders of the IRA, and he insisted it was up to them to somehow restore faith in the damaged peace process.

That would be an Irish bank they robbed, and an Irish law enforcement authority who is blaming Adams and his cohorts. Not the Brits. I feel this guy is a terrorist and a slime. He works to mass his power, nothing more. His rule has futher brought Sinn Fein into one of a Marxist-Leninist wannabe organization yet they are no closer to over throwing Ireland and installing their true socialist government as they have ever been.

This nothing to do with the Catholics fight for freedom from Britain of course. And that's part of the problem. Sinn Fein has had it's own agenda and has used the freedom fight for it's own purposes. Read the enlightening piece by Joe Craig at Socialist Democracy.org (http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/RecentArticles/RecentSinnFeinCelebrates100Years.html) as to how many socialists view Sinn Fein on their 100 anniversary celebrated earlier this month.

[ethics]

The English brutalized their neighbors so badly it is almost impossible to fully comprehend.

I think many of us can try. :)

I've read much about the history, both from Irish and British side, and I have to say that no matter how bad it was (and it was horrid) there's still no excuse for terrorism (I know you don't condone it either just saying).

After WWII, a Jew had a plan to poison the water one one German town. He was stopped by the future Israelis. He was captured on the boat to future Israel. And let's face it, Jews had it pretty bad and many would not blame them for doing some form of revenge like that. What good would have this done?

The way I read it is that Adams/Arafat comparison was more about how they both screwed over <b>their own</b> people because they both relied on emotions and history and not genuine care for their people.

[Domh]

The way I read it is that Adams/Arafat comparison was more about how they both screwed over their own people because they both relied on emotions and history and not genuine care for their people.

Good point. Adams really isnt doing anything for Ireland or for peace, but he isnt fervently followed and adored like a daddy to throngs of wailing crying zealots.

I think the Irish ignore him and ignore the North as best they can. I dont know why - I think the state of affairs perhaps isnt as important to them as it may have once been. Then again, it may be another reason. Why did God invent Whiskey? To keep the Irish from taking over the world. That 'joke' isnt a slur, its a compliment.

I dont agree with Adams tactics at all and I dont think he is helping to ease old tensions one bit, but he aint Arafat. He just aint that big. He is just as innefectual though - granted.

[ethics]

Good point. Adams really isnt doing anything for Ireland or for peace, but he isnt fervently followed and adored like a daddy to throngs of wailing crying zealots.

Technically, and if I may be a curmudgeon for a minute, neither was Arafat to the Palestinians. This is the failure of MSM, and how they made (yes made) Arafat more than he was to Palestinians.

I think the Irish ignore him and ignore the North as best they can. I dont know why - I think the state of affairs perhaps isnt as important to them as it may have once been. Then again, it may be another reason. Why did God invent Whiskey? To keep the Irish from taking over the world. That 'joke' isnt a slur, its a compliment.

LOL! I've heard the same for Vodka and Russians. ;)

[Domh]

I've heard the same for Vodka and Russians.

Now THAT would be a cage match!

:holyshit:

[ethics]

Now THAT would be a cage match!

:holyshit:


I doubt they would even get in the ring. Not that they would be too drunk but because Russia has an interesting respect for the Irish.

Sorry Steve, didn't mean to take this OT but in order to keep it on topic. I think Domh agrees with you but doesn't like you calling Adams Arafat. :P

(sorry, couldn't resist)

[Domh]

Russia has an interesting respect for the Irish.

Also sorry to OT on Stios topic, but - hey, conversations evolve.

I think alot of nations and people have an 'interesting respect 'for the Irish, and I think the fact that they held off the greatest Colonial power in history that lived a few miles away has alot to do with it.

Everyday that goes by, the more I read, the more I like the theory of Ireland as Atlantis.

[Piobaireachd]

Is it time for him to leave as well?

Yes, feet first.

Don't wait for this guy to die of old age like Arafat.

[ShinyTop]

Who is/was a terrorist and who was a national hero often depends on the eventual winner. Many will point to many Israeli leaders and show where they performed acts considered terroristic but they won and became statesmen. I will not defend any people who conquered and mistreated others. But our own history is replete with examples of the current goals of our country overriding humanitarian treatment of entire peoples.

Can anybody name a world power that did not have a history of abuse of others along the way?

[Arc]

Where else in the world is one modern civilized nation occupying another modern civilized nation by force of arms for no reason but egoistic hegemonics? Can anybody offer a good reason why England truly needs to occupy Northern Ireland?

There is only one solution to the conflict in Northern Ireland. The English must immediately and without condition pack up and get the hell out of Ireland leaving behind only a hearty apology and a mass of cash to aid the Irish in effecting positive national unification by way of reparations for centuries of brutality and oppression against an innocent people.



I neither condemn or support the English being in Northern Ireland nor am I commenting on the IRA, Adams, et. al.

And a disclaimer: My memory is a bit fuzzy on some specifics but in general it is my distinct impression that the majority of those in Northern Ireland, (mostly those identified as protestant), want the English there in some type of police or security presence. And if the majority wanted the English out they have some type of democratic or formal government procedure or process that would result in the English having to leave--but so far have chosen not to do that. (Including independence such as Ireland has.)

[ethics]

Many will point to many Israeli leaders and show where they performed acts considered terroristic but they won and became statesmen.

Begin was a terrorist, no ifs and buts, but history will hail him as a peacemaker.

Adams has not shown me that he is headed the same way.